Episode 6–Putting in WURK with Personal Trainers Maurice Buchanan and Daleco James of WURK Gym, Part 2

In Part 2 of 2, we sit down with personal trainers Maurice Buchanan and Daleco James of WURK Gym in Minnetonka, MN, to discuss why fitness Instagrammers are scammers and why they see themselves as "an idea."   

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Transcript

Coming up on The Mindful Midlife Crisis...

Maurice: To get involved and make sure that people can do that, we have to get out and do what we have to do. But it's also a piece of where we stand from, it's just someone out here cares about you. If you need us for anything, we can help. That's so important. If we can't pass this knowledge along to someone, for me, personally, I don't know why you're doing it if you can't give it to people who need it the most. If you can't give that to somebody else, the generation behind you, what you're doing is worthless.

(intro)

Welcome to The Mindful Midlife Crisis, a podcast for people navigating the complexities and possibilities of life's second half. Join your hosts, Billy and Brian, a couple of average dudes who will serve as your armchair life coaches, as we share our life experiences — both the good and the bad — in an effort to help us all better understand how we can enjoy and make the most of the life we have left to live in a more meaningful way. Take a deep breath, embrace the present, and journey with us through The Mindful Midlife Crisis.

Billy: Welcome to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. I'm your host Billy. And as always, I'm joined by my good friend, Brian on the Bass. Brian, how are you doing over there, man?

Brian: I am phenomenal today.

Billy: Phenomenal?

Brian: Phenomenal.

Billy: Why are you so phenomenal today?

Brian: You know, it's just been a good week. Lots of stuff going on. Lots of good stuff, like a busy good week.

Billy: Excellent. Good to hear. I'm feeling rather presidential, because I am sitting in your captain's seat here in your office. This is a badass spot that you have here in the office. This is the new spot for me. So, this is very cool.

Brian: And you're seeing what I usually see when the employees are in my office.

Billy: Yeah, you have a lot of disgusting Green Bay Packers paraphernalia that's in this office. But here's what is awesome. You have a signed picture from Rob DeLeo from STP.

Brian: Oh, yeah. Did you not know it?

Billy: No, what's that story?

Brian: He's a great guy. Really, I was out in California at NAMM or NEMM depending on who you talk to. It's either NAMM or NEMM. Purists are going to tell you it's NEMM. But anyway, I ran into him out there along with Doug Pinnick and John 5 from Marilyn Manson.

Billy: Oh, from Marilyn Manson.

Brian: And Zakk Wylde.

Billy: What?

Brian: Those four guys were in one of the guitar booths. I don't remember which one. I think it might have been Fender, or Schecter, or one of those. I walked in Al Jourgensen from Ministry who's standing right behind me.

Billy: What?

Brian: Yeah, Al Jourgensen's behind me. I started talking to Rob DeLeo. He was just a great dude, like totally laid back. I was like, "Hey man, I'm sorry. I'm going to fanboy for a minute. But your baselines are incredibly inventive. They're busy but not too busy. They always fit perfectly." He was really genuine. He looked me in the eye. He's like, "Wow. Thanks, man. I mean, that's really high praise." He looked genuinely flattered for a nobody coming up to him.

I was just like, "Hey, man. I'm a bass player, too, and I really appreciate what you do." We sat there and had a great conversation for about 20 minutes, just bullshitting. He was just the coolest dude. He's so down to earth and just a great guy.

Billy: That's awesome. STP, all-time favorite. For me, Scott Weiland had the best stage presence of any lead singer that I have ever seen, and still to this day have ever seen. He just commanded a stage. Indeed, like many of our heroes from that era, I miss him greatly. He was phenomenal.

Brian: Yeah, died in Bloomington here in Minnesota. Didn't he?

Billy: Yeah, he did. A sad story. Well, that's cool. I know, I've never seen that picture before. So, that's badass. That's really something else. What else is something else is the fact that our interview with Maurice Buchanan and Daleco James from WURK Gym, we just couldn't stop talking to those guys. Because that's how badass they are.

Brian: They're great. They are really great guys.

Billy: And so, if you're listening to this episode and you're like, "Who are they talking about," go back and listen to Wednesday's episode. That's part one of that conversation. Then make sure that you listen to the end of this episode, because Brian actually had a boxing lesson with Daleco. How was that?

Brian: It was great. Daleco is a consummate professional. You can see his experience. He's very masterful. It's quick. It's interesting. I mean, I was not prepared for the joining of the mind and body as quickly as you need to when you're boxing. I wasn't even in a real match. He was just warming me up. It was great, though. I got an amazing workout. I was hurt for a couple of days after that. It was really good.

Billy: Excellent. So, stick around for that and enjoy the rest of our conversation with Daleco James and Maurice Buchanan of WURK Gym.

(interview)

Billy: Welcome back to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. We're here at WURK Gym in Minnetonka, Minnesota.

Brian: That's W-U-R-K.

Billy: That's right. Check them out. We're sitting in the middle of their boxing ring here with Daleco James and Maurice Buchanan. Once again, thank you guys. This has been a fantastic conversation so far. So, you've touched a little bit on the fitness Instagram community. I just wanted to draw out a little bit more about — when it comes to authenticity and actual experience, who do you look to or who do you recommend as people to follow? Do you not recommend anybody? What should be things that people look at, and they're like, oh, I need to stay away from that fool?

Maurice: For us, we have some people here in our community here. Marcus Watson who runs 57Fit is a really good person. We all used to work together. We came out of the same thing. We all met. Well, I met Daleco and Marcus at the same gym. Then we all branched off. We've all formed a good relationship with each other. I really like what he's doing.

There's a guy named Phil Daru, who's a really good strength and conditioning coach for MMA fighters. He's really phenomenal at what he does, because he goes into great detail about explaining why he's doing things. I mean, pretty advanced stuff when he goes into talking about those things. When you see that, that's what I look for. It's the explanation behind it.

If I'm going to do something, if I'm going to do this exercise or this movement from this angle, tell me anatomically why it's beneficial. But right now, if I see a trainer, it's like, "Hey, this is going to make your arms bigger." I scroll to the next thing. That's dumb. One, you're missing the point. One, that's genetics. One, that's food. One, that's rest. One, that's a whole recipe. Because if anyone has any type of sense in this thing, resistance training is destruction. It's demolition. You don't get stronger from destroying. You get stronger from repair and eating.

Because if you hit the gym five days a week and you hit it really hard, but you only eat 1000 calories, you're not growing anything. So, a lot of these trainers say one thing, and then leave out the other component of what is responsible for growth, and healing, and mobility. The amount of trainers who talk about lifting and not stretching and mobility work and say, "Hey, follow my page. Scroll past that," the resistance part of this is like thing narcissist— This is the easiest part. Pick stuff up. Set it back down. It's all the other stuff outside of here from rush, from stress, from mobility, to stretching, eating. All of those things play a component into your resistance training. If those things are not solidified and those things are not as optimal as they can be, then I don't care how hard you hit it. Your training is going nowhere.

Like I said, a lot of the inexperienced trainers are like, "Do my workout plan. I'm going to do this this day." You start looking at it, and then just goofy things. When you just look at someone's program where like, "Hey, we're going to do trap bar, deadlift. Then we're going to do pull downs, and then we're going to do shrug, and then we're going to do pull ups," I'm like, your hands are toast. You're not doing any pull ups. Your forearms are gone.

To have that at the end of your program is ridiculous. I don't know. You can have the strongest form. So, you just look at how people set things up in their training workout. Okay. This is the third. This is the fourth day where I've done things, where I'm moving at the shoulder joint, whether that's chest, back, or shoulders. Again, your shoulders are toast. You're not moving anything. You haven't healed. It's been straight days of shoulders.

Some people genetically can get away with it. But for the general population, a lot of people just cannot go through that much stress and not do the proper healing or recovery from it and still work. It's things like that. It's tough, and I feel really bad for the general population. Because all they see is just the image. They see this incredible image, this very strong, attractive person doing these exercises. "I'm going to look like that." It's like you want it. You just won't. You're looking at less than 1% of the population who can get this done. I'm one of those people. My arms have been abnormally big since I was a kid. They've always looked like this. All I do is bicep curls. I don't do anything special. I could stop doing bicep curls today, and my arms would still be this big. They just are.

Billy: Well, you're an asshole, Maurice. You stopped me there. You're an asshole.

Maurice: But it goes back to the obsession with people's glutes. Genetically, I don't care what program you go to. Everyone cannot be shaped the same. You can line up 10 bodybuilders and have them go through the same 10 workouts. They're all going to be shaped differently. They just will.

When you get bodybuilders, they don't all look about the same. Some people have bigger lats. Some people have bigger quads. Some people have bigger chest. Sometimes you look, and then they start breaking down their training modalities or what they've done for their regimen. It resembles all the same. But genetically in how you heal, all of those things, components, still matter.

So, when someone gets on Instagram and says, "Hey, this is what my butt looks like. Yours can look like that, too," that's complete bullshit. It just is. But you're so enticed by the image, and it's so attractive. You're like, "Well, then I want to look like that, too." But if you don't put those things in consideration, that there are a lot of things, there's a lot of boxes you need to check to have growth in muscle.

I tried to show people sometimes just genetically. The reason why is just I have short tendons in my bicep and big muscle bellies, but I don't have the same thing for my calf. My calf muscles are very small. They're not going anywhere, because I have a small muscle belly and a very long tendon. I can do calf raises that the calf is coming. My calf is not going to go past its attachment point. That's where its assertion. That's where it's going. I can't move them as I search to go in, cut it and then move it further down. So, my calf's potential is not as big as my biceps just because it's genetically how I'm built.

That goes for everybody. You're built a certain way to where muscles attach, where muscles insert. Based on the length and size of your tendons and the size of your belly, that'll let you know your potential. So, if you have small muscle bellies and your glute, and long tendons, it's just not there. Just like someone that's 5'2 is not going to most likely be able to dunk on someone who's 7 feet tall. Genetically it's not. It doesn't mean you can't do other things. It just means you can't do this one thing.

Like what Daleco touched on — not to pick — you have female clients who are like, "I can't do my glutes. I want to do this glute exercise. But you have an upper back. Why don't do pull ups? There’s so much more to your fitness. Why are you so focused on that? Because it's popular now?

That's what we look like. When we look at trainers who are one-sided, all glutes, it's non-stop. It's like, "Do my glute workout. Do my glute workout." Where's your pull up workout? Where's your core workout? Where's your mobility workout? Where are those things? Why are you just focusing on butt? So, all of that.

With that approach, you can x out 98% of the fitness trainers on Instagram. Probably, it should be 99% of people. Get off.

Daleco: Bands, people in these bands. I feel the burn. I'm not saying that you won't get it. You'll get a little bit benefit of it. But I mean, at the end of the day, you're not really doing anything. You're just messing up your joints, basically. You've been stressing your joints by using these bands like that. They do lateral walks, squat, squat, lateral walks, squat, squat. Knees going over their feet — you don't suppose to do that anyway.

Brian: You see that a lot?

Maurice: Yeah, that lateral band work is so — people think this is going to give me — Your glute maximus does not do that movement. It just not.

Daleco: It don't.

Maurice: It doesn't move laterally. It just doesn't. So, they're like, "Oh, this burns so much." Grab a $1 bill. Put it in your hand and hold your arm at 90 degrees. It's going to burn in about two minutes. People will just focus on the burn and someone else's butt that looks great.

That abduction machine from the right angle looks phenomenal. So many people who are trying to work on their glutes and make them look bigger or make them look more shapely do that exercise, strictly because it burns butt anatomically. That's not what your glute maximus does. It just does do that motion.

Daleco: That machine is not even for that. I don't think it is. Stand up on there and use it. They think they do something with their glutes.

Maurice: Like, it burns more when I do this. That does shit. That's still not how the body works. I don't care what your butt looks like. Because for someone who's gifted in that area, whether that's arms, chest, or that area because that's so much of the focus. It's a shame that people focus so much on that part and not conditioning or just their stamina in certain areas. That body you live in is so miraculous. It does so many things. People just whittle it down to one or two things, neglecting the overall ability of this human thing, this machine you live in.

Because of this goofball who has a million followers said, "Do this, do that," you're not realizing they're shamming you because they're trying to get to the next thing, whatever it is — maybe getting a movie, maybe become popular, maybe get whatever they're trying to get started. They know they can pull the wool over your head. Because you're so enticed by what they look like, you're not going to even question just the misinformation they're throwing out. Because you're like, that person looks incredible. Do whatever they're doing, and it must work. People prey on people who are trying to do that stuff.

So, it's easy for us who've been doing it for so long to see people who are doing that and be like, "Wrong. Get this. Don't even follow this person." This is so wrong from how they set it up, to their information, to how they're even giving you the information. This is 100% wrong. Get out of the fact that they are attractive to you. That has nothing to do with anything. So, it's really easy to pick it up. But for a lot of people, it isn't because they just don't know. But a lot of people in this industry prey on the fact that people don't know. That's how it becomes so successful for a lot of people who are giving people misinformation and misguiding them.

Billy: So, what would be maybe some standard questions that you would suggest to people to ask if they were going to go work with a personal trainer? What should they look for in a real-deal trainer?

Daleco: Experience, education background. I'm not saying that our personal trainers need a degree. It's just if they're keeping their education up, at least, having some sort of bachelor's or something like that. Not trying to have them sell you something. That's what it is. If they're trying to sell something, like, "I can get you to look like this. Yeah, for sure. I got you." If you hear that, okay. Alright. Now time for me to leave.

Billy: Walk out the door.

Daleco: Yeah.

Maurice: You should be able to drill your personal trainer with as many — you should drill them up and down. Why are we doing this? Does this work? How come this doesn't work instead? They should be passionate about telling you why. Because I've seen trainers get those questions, and they get frustrated because they weren't expecting to hear that. They were expecting, "I look great. My shirt is awesome. You shouldn't question me."

A lot of trainers prey on that thing. When someone walks in the door and ask them two questions — hey, we're going to do this exercise. We're going to do lateral band walks — some clients come in. They did some research before they came in. "So, I read that when you move that, it doesn't work your glute maximus. It doesn't make your butt—" Then you watch him just freeze because they were hoping that, "Oh, I look like this. You're not going to say anything to me." Then when they do, you watch them freeze.

So, I tell people when you sit and talk with a trainer, drill them up and down with a question. Ask them why. Why are we doing this? How come this works? Show me examples. Show me what your background is. I mean, drill them up and down. Because you would do the same thing if you went to go see a doctor or a dentist. Anyone that's dealing with your body, you should shred them with questions to the point where they're exhausted. If they know what they're talking about and they're passionate in it, then they won't get frustrated with you. Like I said, a lot of trainers just get frustrated because they weren't expecting it. That's how you start to weed out these goofballs that are in this industry when we start lighting them up.

But people come in this thing, and it's so intimidating. They're too afraid to ask the question. The amount of clients who come to me are like, "I know this is a stupid question." I was like, no, it isn't. It's not stupid because you don't know and I do. Because if you did know, then I'm out of the job. You're supposed to not know. That's how I get paid. I get paid because you don't know. So, it's not stupid at all. You need to ask it because it's something you don't know. It's something you haven't experienced. But too many clients come in like, "I don't know enough, so I don't want to ask." That's exactly why you should be asking. Ask because you don't know. Nothing that comes out of your mouth is stupid. Because whatever I say back to you, hopefully, that helps you get to whatever you're trying to get to. Now it makes more sense. I always try to let clients know. I was like, never be afraid to ask me anything. Because I'm not going to have you do anything in here that doesn't make sense. That's ridiculous.

I have too many clients, you just watch them from across the room, from all the gym settings we've been in. You're looking across. You hear and try not to meddle in people's conversation. You're hearing like, "Oh, I want to do this today." You hear their recommendation, and you're like, "What the f***? Wait. Did you just really say that?" I remember one time, I saw a trainer training a pregnant woman who was probably in her second trimester, and had her doing burpees. I'm like, what the f***? I was like, what if this goes wrong? But that client felt like, "I can't say nothing. Whatever you say. You look better than I do, so I'm just going to just let it slide." That should have been red flags all over the place. But you watch people who are so intimidated by these trainers in their appearance. They don't want to say anything.

I tell people, you ask them every single thing. You hold them accountable, too, to what they said. Have them show you every single thing they're doing. Have them explain every single thing. Don't just take their word because of what they look like. It comes back from the clients, and it comes back from the customers. You have to demand more from these trainers. That's how this industry gets better. Do not let things slide. Do not let trainers sit there and eat food while you're working out. That is absolute bullshit. That has got to stop. Don't let people just be on their cell phones while you're trying to work out. But people don't do that because they're so intimidated. Like, "I don't know anything, so I'm not going to say anything." No, do not do that. You have to ask questions. No question is a dumb question if you don't know it.

Billy: How do you guys compete then? In COVID times, how do you guys compete with apps? Do you think those work? Do you not think those work? Brian does an app. He's very religious about it. He uses Shred. We talked last week, Brian and I did, about what he's doing for his fitness.

Brian, I asked you how did you get into doing fitness. Because you had done nothing leading up to it. You said a lot of it was stretching and mobility so that you could get into it. Did that come from the app, or did you come from a different source? I'm just curious.

Brian: Yeah, that did come from the app. I was looking for something. Because I never lacked the motivation. I just didn't know what was good for me. So, I started looking around. As you were saying — I've met with personal trainers before — I got the same feeling you were talking about, Maurice. Does this guy really know what he's doing? I haven't seen the kind of results I want to see. Obviously, taking genetics and stuff into account, a lot of the stuff you're saying is really resonating to me. I'm like, "That's why it didn't work out for me."

Billy: I have two questions. One, what are you seeing with apps? Do you think that the apps are a good way to do fitness? Will ask the second question later.

Maurice: It's tough sometimes because it all depends on the person. If you have terrible form, that app is not going to tell you how to fix it. The amount of people who try to do pushups, their hands are too wide, or their hands are too out because you don't know what you're looking for. All you're looking for is up and down. You don't look at where their feet are positioned, how they're stabilizing their glutes a little bit more, how they're stabilizing their midsection. All of these things matter. No one's there to break these things down, which is tough. Because whatever motivates you, do it. If that's what motivates you, that's great. But there's still a certain way you have to do certain things. Some people just don't know.

The amount of people who I've worked with when they sit in a chair, how does that feel? They're like, "Well, it seems like it's lame or something. But I've been sitting like this for 10 years. I'm doing this on the app. So, this is how I squat." Well, this is wrong. I make them feel bad. But the app doesn't say, "Hey, pick your chest up, or sit through your heels, or pull your shoulders back." It won't tell you those things, because it can't look at you. There are applications where you have trainers that are looking at your form. But then, they just want to lay down this blanketed list of this is what you're going to do today.

Those things, when you don't really consider the form — the form part is so important. What they don't tell you is that the people on that app have worked so hard at that for years. That's not their first day. If it's not their first day, how in the world is someone on their first day going to do this perfectly? There's no way you're going to do it because you don't have the right mind-body connection about where my hands are supposed to be, where are my feet supposed to be, where are my shoulders supposed to be at?

Daleco: Yeah, so, if you have an app, I would ask questions. Go to a trainer or something. Okay. So, I have this app. I want to do it but not necessarily need a personal trainer, because I want to do the app. Can you show me the correct form? There's nothing wrong with doing that.

Maurice: Right.

Daleco: I would do that.

Billy: I think sometimes people think that they need to get in shape before they see the personal trainer. Really, it should be the other way around. Once you work with a personal trainer, learn how to do some of the basics. Then if you're going to go to this app, show the personal trainer some of the exercises that are in the app, so the personal trainer can watch you do those and then say, go on your own.

That leads me to this question, which I think is probably a controversial one in terms of the business mindset. I guess, I am of the mindset that if I work with you as a client for two, three months, then I should have been able to give you enough of a skill set to where you don't have to come back to me. Am I an idiot?

Maurice: Not an idiot.

Daleco: No, you are not an idiot.

Billy: But am I wrong?

Daleco: Yeah.

Maurice: Yeah.

Billy: Okay.

Daleco: Sorry. But you're not an idiot, though.

Billy Lahr: Alright. I appreciate that. That's okay. So, tell me what am I wrong about. Tell me a little bit more. Why is that wrong?

Maurice: It all depends on who it is. It really, really does. So many people have a lifestyle to where when they do one thing, their lifestyle outside of the gym is not conducive to what they've just done. The amount of people who will do squats and lunges and work on their legs and hips and ankles sit in a chair for eight hours a day. It gets rid of everything. That gets rid of it. You're taking steps back each time. Then you're also missing the emotional and mental part, the motivation part, for a lot of people. A lot of people go through that component.

Daleco, I know, has taken 100 pounds off someone. So have I. That takes longer than three months, and not even just from practical issues like where are you going to go to do these things? You got to consider this. That's where people miss this whole fitness thing. It's an all-rounded thing from life — to inside, to outside of the gym. A lot of those things are longer than two or three months. They just are, because you're trying to practice things.

You might be coming from never moving before, and now you're trying to move things. So, it takes a second to break things down. I've had a lot of people, when they try to do step up, are terrified of heights. That takes a second for them to get the confidence to do that. It also takes people a second to get the confidence to do movements they didn't feel like they could ever do before.

Billy: That is something that would have never crossed my mind. Just to be up that 36 inches is terrifying.

Maurice: It scares a lot of people because they don't have the confidence in their strength. It's not something they've ever done before. Suddenly, if you get a hold of a phenomenal athlete and they just need like a light dusting, then two or three months, you're out the door.

But the general population, especially in America, we're in a bad state right now from sitting from too long. You're trying to get things to cut back on. It should have been cut on a long time ago. So, you spend usually the first month or so depending on how often they can come in. Just getting things to trigger and cut back on. When you move like this, do you feel where this is at? "Oh, I feel this in my knees." You feel it in your knees because your butt doesn't work. To get that and be like, okay, your glutes don't work. They're not working the way they should. Okay. So, now we did all these things that help your glutes work a little bit more. But then, you go sit on for eight hours in the chair. We undid all of those things because now you're taking steps back instead of taking steps forward.

There are all these other components you need to consider when you're doing those things. Then when I send you off on your own, what you're going to do is just with your plan. If you go to a big jam, it can be terrifying. People have come in with their lists. "I'm going to do this work out." Okay. They're going to go at five o'clock at night. Good luck. Go in there and tell me how it's going to get down. There's gorillas everywhere. They're slamming things all over the place. So, how are you going to load this thing? Okay. You got to load this thing up. Now there's someone in the corner looking at you on their cell phone, like, "Hey sir, it's been 15 minutes. You need to get off the machine." All of that comes together when you go by yourself. It all depends. There are so many different questions. There are so many different things you got to consider. But there's a significant level of fear that people take sometimes months to get over.

I've had people stop and stuck on a box for 15 minutes just standing up there, just looking down. Like, "What the fuck is this all about?" Or someone who's like if you're trying to get someone to do a pull up and you're trying to give them a resistance band just so they can stabilize, the first thing they pulled, their legs shoot out from on their own because they just don't know how to control that part. Now they're scared.

Okay. Now what do we do? Because the body can do so many different things. You're like, how many things we're trying to focus on? How much do I have to break down? Because if we're going from step one — with lunge — and we can't get that, we're back in this train up so far. Because if I can get you to do it with bodyweight, now I put resistance in your hand, that changes things too. Now we got to undo those pieces as well.

I mean, certain populations, certain clients. They might be able to get down in three months. But the most general population, they're going to need a lot more. Just because most people don't work out for a living. It's not their primary focus, so they don't practice it as much as they should — whether that be home life, whether that be work life. They're just like, "Hey, we just did this exercise. I need you to stretch when you get home." If they find that they don't stretch, so now you've done two or three days of resistance. You come back the next week, you haven't stretched. You've broken all this tissue. Now you locked up like fucking safe. Now you can't move. Now we got to undo all of these things.

A lot of people, when you constantly don't move forward all times, a lot of times, you make a lot of back steps. You have to also kind of be like, here's how we're going to do that. It has to be motivating when things don't go right. You got to tell people you're going to have a bad day to do more things do not go well. That's just going to be a part of it. The resistance you thought you were going to use was going to be good. You're not moving. I'm telling you things four or five times, and you're just not getting it. So, now you're frustrated with me. You're like, "Now, what's my plan?" How do I back it up and say, "Okay. I got to say it differently, because you're not getting it. You're not understanding it.

How do I break this down a little bit more to where you can understand it and not make them lame." It's just like I'm saying the wrong thing. But you run into these roadblocks sometimes with people who are trying their hardest, and then they get discouraged. All of a sudden, they're at home for two weeks because I just feel like I'm embarrassed. A lot of people walk in here with — not in our gym. A lot of them are just embarrassed about where they're at. So, sometimes it takes a month or two just to get the courage just to walk in here, perform something, while you think everybody's looking at me. Essentially, you have stage fright. Like, I want to do this move. I want to do this lunge, but everyone's looking at me. What if it goes wrong? What if I fall down? Is everyone going to laugh at me? Sometimes just getting over that is about a month or two.

Because then, when you let go, now you can perform a little bit better because you're not so tight. The anxiety is not restricting your movement. So, you also got to consider that a lot of people operate that way. Even with a lot of the athletes we have, when they try to do something that they've never done before and you're trying to break this down to them, they're like, "We're supposed to be world class, but this is a new movement." You would almost want to get someone who's untrained. Sometimes getting people who are already trained, they've learned shit that has been wrong for years.

Daleco: Right. You got to change their form.

Maurice: The whole thing.

Daleco: Yeah, you got to change their whole system.

Maurice: From the top.

Daleco: I've dealt with that before. When new fighters come in, they have bad form. I always have to, now we got to go back to the boring stuff. So, I always have to break them down all the time.

Billy: I want to talk a little bit about COVID and its impact on people's fitness, and even just impact on you guys as business owners. I know that when the gym shut down — just to speak to what you were just talking about. I take great pride in my trap bar deadlift. That's my bread and butter. That's the one ego lift that I really want to get after.

I remember June 10th was the first day that we could go back into the gym. I just loaded up real simple, like the real light weights. I'm like, we're starting over. We're starting over at very, very light weights. We'll progress from there. But I know that if I try and load this up like I used to, the next week, I'm probably not going to go back to the gym because I'm going to be hurt and I'm going to be sore, and I'm going to get frustrated. So, leave your ego at the door.

Alright. So, here's what we're going to do. We're going to take a break. Then when we come back, we will talk a little bit more with Daleco James and Maurice Buchanan. Thank you for listening to The Mindful Midlife Crisis.

(break)

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And now, let's take a minute to be present with our breath. If you're listening somewhere safe and quiet, close your eyes and slowly inhale for 4, 3, 2, 1. Hold for 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Slowly exhale for 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Let's do that one more time. Inhale for 4, 3, 2, 1. Hold for 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Slowly exhale for 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Go ahead and open your eyes. You feel better? We certainly hope so. And now, back to the show.

(interview)

Billy: I'm curious. How has COVID impacted you guys as gym owners? How has it impacted your client’s fitness? Are they coming? You've talked about things have been undone. So, I'm curious on both ends. How has it impacted you as gym owners? How has it impacted your clients?

Daleco: It's been a little hard. But, I mean, at the same time, I've been communicating with my people making sure that they've been doing their thing even in this bad time. I'm just making sure they're doing stuff at home. Again, it's always a team thing with me. I'm checking in, and they always appreciate that, too.

Billy: Do you do Zoom workouts with them or virtual workouts?

Daleco: No, not necessarily. But I just make sure that they're doing their thing. It's a little hard, especially with all this food costing $0.99. Going past Taco Bell, I'm like, oh, dang. You get them for $1? You know what I mean?

Brian: It's frustrating that the food that's bad for you is the stuff that's really cheap, too.

Daleco: That's cheaper to make.

Brian: Yeah, exactly.

Daleco: But we've been doing we need to do. We've been communicating and trying to keep up the motivation.

Maurice: That's the big thing. It's just by being so personable, you see what happens a lot even with COVID. A lot of times, especially here in the summertime, a lot of people just take off. They'd go away because now it's nice. So, I don't want to be in a gym anymore. You're like, well, you're going to undo everything that you did in here.

I approached it the same way I approached the summer with people. It's like, here's how we're going to communicate with each other. Whether you're not in here, whether it's COVID, or summer, or vacation, it's still the same approach. You're still not in here. Because people will go away for a month.

Daleco: Come back and expect to work the same rate as they did. You're wondering why. Oh, man. I thought I was— Well, you've been gone for a long time.

Maurice: But if you're not here, regardless of the reason, there's still a communication effort. As long as you can keep those things intact and keep those things rolling as we have very good personal relationships with our people. It's been easier, I would say, than most people who don't have that relationship and able to communicate with people like that. To be able to say, "This is where you were at. This is what you're going to do from home." That's what I did a lot with a lot of my people. Then just keeping the content. I was like, here, just do these basic things at the house. By doing that, people were still participating in the gym. People were still making sure the gym still stands. We formed that relationship with them. To be able to do that, that kept the gym alive a lot while we were dealing with COVID. That's how we did it.

We're actually doing really good right now. Just from doing that from the beginning, we just hung in there. I know a few gyms just went black and just went nothing. They didn't talk to their people. That was it. Then the gym folded up, or their trainers just quit job. It's because you never formed that relationship with people to where like, in here, outside here, we're going to keep doing what we're doing. Period. That's what we're going to do. You don't need to be in here. If you can be in here, that's great.

But I was doing this much as, well, keep doing these things so that when you come back, we can still do it. Because you find out, people, when they start to achieve things, it's almost like you're doing something in your body you didn't think you can do. If you can keep people — you've worked so hard. You felt so good when you did these things. We can keep that going. People are like, oh, I'll keep doing this. Even though I'm in here, not in here, it doesn't matter. By having that kind of structure in here, that's kept this rolling through the whole COVID situation.

Billy: You guys have really stressed the importance of communication and community. I know you guys do some work outside of the gym in order to keep up with community. So, can you guys talk a little bit about that?

Maurice: Yeah, when I grew up in Louisville, Kentucky, we would always go to community centers. I was always fascinated by people in the community who always worked with us and told us how important being strong and being in shape was. It was never this expensive trainer or coach. They were just like someone in the community working at the YMCA or local school or community saying those things and just giving that knowledge and education to kids. It's just so important. I feel like that it was nearly as that as now before the cell phones and video games. Kids are just inactive now. You've seen kids who are not in shape, who are not taking care of themselves. Then they're carrying that emotionally and mentally to where they are, whether it be in school. I don't like the way my body looks and things like that.

So, one of our big communications has always been getting into our community, telling them like this is what you have to do. Because I think there's just been this misconception that being healthy is only for people who are privileged or who have a lot of money. That's just not true. You have as much access. You have a floor. You have a gym. That's it. You're done. You can do anything.

But to get involved and make sure that people can do that, we have to get out and do what we have to do. But it's also a piece of — where we stand from, it's just someone out here cares about you. If you need us for anything, we can help. That's so important. If you can't pass this knowledge along to someone, for me, personally, I don't know why you're doing it. If you can't give it to people who need it the most — whether that's fitness, whether that's entrepreneurial, whether that's business advice — if you can't give that to somebody else, the generation behind you, what you're doing is worthless. What you're doing is selfish.

I grew up like that. My mom and dad kept us. We did March of Dimes stuff. We did a lot of stuff in the community. We painted houses for neighbors. I grew up like this. So, when I had an opportunity to give it back, I would do it. Because a lot of the times, we didn't do anything with the community at all. I thought that was just extremely selfish to not even be involved to help people. So, it's just as important because I remember being these little kids. I remember being in a position where I want to do these things, but I don't have access to it. But now, finally, we got to the point we have access. We can bring you in here. We can go to you. We can give you the education or a little bit of what our experience would be.

In our top 10 things that we did, one of my biggest things and maybe it was one of them, it's just being an idea. We represent an idea. Ideas are strong. Before, you look at someone like us in our communities, this is not an idea. I tell people, we open this gym with no loans, no investors. Just our own money. Every other gym I've been in, mom and daddy gave someone a $30,000 check or a $40,000 check or backed them or something like that, or got a loan or something like that. We did this off the money we've made in the years of training on our own.

We've had people come in help us paint and help us like put equipment in. But as far as funding this thing, it's funded by me and Daleco. So, to be able to tell kids like, hey, you can do this too. We're not special. We're not special. We didn't go to Minnesota School of Business or anything like that. We have a skill set we went to school for. We're good at being nice to people and being customer service. So, to be able to tell people, hey, you can do this, too. Because I think too often in our community, if you're not going to be an athlete or an entertainer, then your bust. I want to be this sports figure. I want to be like — your mission that you have, there's someone in the neighborhood who's ran their business by themselves for the last 20 years. That's humongous. You can be that person, too.

So, we have to represent that idea, to show people that not only can you be successful without having loans and having maybe a history of wealth in your family, but you can also give it back, too. Because if you don't pass that along, what's this all for? That's why it's been important to me and to us. That's why we continue to do it. We're always looking for opportunities to help people. COVID has made things a lot tougher because you can't interact with people. You just can't be close with people. We still try to do things. We do some things over Christmas for some kids. We try to give as much direction as we can. Daleco does a phenomenal job of helping out boxers who are not here, giving them tips and everything whenever we can do. That's part of our community work.

So, we will always, always, always make that a focal point of this business. Because that's how we ended up here. Someone helped me along the way. We have a facility now that we've worked really, really, really hard for. To be able to pass on that idea to other people, who potentially want to do this as well, I think that serves such a benefit in giving people hope and giving people the idea that they can do things, too. Because I just feel that a lot of these things generationally just get passed on. If you can't do this, you aren't going to have access to it. We were like, you got to stop believing that stuff. You definitely can do this stuff. There's hard work involved. There's direction involved.

Me and Daleco, who look like you, who come from your neighborhoods, can give you the directions to do it and do it in the way to where like no one's talking down to you or not thinking that you're a lot more capable of what you are. Because you might not have the resources or access to the resources to do it. So, let us give you those resources so that the talent that you do has doesn't go unnoticed or untapped. Coming from where we come from, there's a lot of talented kids. There's a lot of talented people. But it's just like, I don't have the access to the resource. Then when I don't have access to those resources, I get into the mindset — which is just contagious from generation to generation — that I can't do these things. We're like, no, we have to undo those things like that. We feel like that's one of our main responsibilities as we have this gym. We've done so much. That's been such the motivation with this whole —

Me and Daleco was like, regardless what we have this COVID, this cannot go down. We have got to keep this gym open. We've got to keep moving. For that reason alone. Never mind making money. Never mind being on TV. Never mind being popular. We have got to keep representing this idea that you don't need this abundance of wealth to have the things you want, to be an entrepreneur, to be your own business owner. You do not need that. You need hard work. You need planning. You need strategy. Then we can also be resource. Here's the next thing you should go to. So, to always be able to be a part of this is very important to us.

Billy: When you're reaching out to your community and you're talking to the youth who look like you and Daleco, do you feel it's important to feel that representation as far as entrepreneurs and as fitness professionals?

Maurice: Yes.

Daleco: For sure. You got to be an example. It's important to us.

Maurice: It's good to be the example to where you look like you, and you don't have to change. Like I said, professional chameleon. We can listen to the music we grew up to. We can dress, and we can talk the way we knew. The amount of people who have been — when you're looking for advice, and you look through Instagram or marketing, make sure you don't swear. Fuck that. No, who are you talking about? Just be you.

But too often, it's like you can't be this person. You have to wear a shirt and tie. You have to wear dress shoes. You have to wear that. For someone to look on the cameras like these guys look like me, they represent what I look like, I don't have to hide who I am as a person. I can be me. Because a lot of other people get to be who they are. So, why wouldn't we be able to be ourselves? Because you find a lot of people get to the top or start climbing to the top, and the top doesn't look like you. So, you feel like you have to conform to look like them. We're like, fuck that, man. Be who you are. You can do that. But we have to be the representation of that. We want to be the representation of you can be exactly who you are. You can be just as professional as someone in a shirt and tie as you are in a hoodie and tennis shoes. You can be just as professional. It's just a different look, but you're still as professional. You can still be just as successful. You don't have to talk like this and be like that.

In my early 20s, I came in having bosses, like, this is professional. I had one boss like, "Having a beard is unprofessional." You're like, what? Where? How is that? I don't get that? Why? People with bare faced skin don't do dumb shit to people? I'm sure they do. Only people who have beards are going to do bad stuff? I never got that.

But you start to hear that concept. You need to wear the shirt and tie, and you need to wear dress pants. No, you don't. Some of the most professional people I know are tattooed up, have earrings, have Mohawks. They will give you the shirt off their back, and they run the best business ever for what they're doing. So, they have this idea that you need to look and sound a certain way. It's absolute bullshit. So, you just want to let kids know — they come from the neighborhoods you come from — be you. Be yourself. Listen to music you like. Dress how you want to be. Take care of your craft. Work harder with what you're trying to do. You can run something successful. You don't have to be like, well, I got to change who I am. No, you don't.

Billy: So, you had posted the other day something on Instagram, where you guys were recognized as a black-owned business that people needed to follow. It sound to me like your response to that, it felt like it was more of a backhanded compliment. So, I'm just curious if you could talk a little bit about that.

Maurice: Yeah.

Daleco: How can't we just be a gym? Life Time. I'm going to go to the gym. Are you going to go to Life Time? I'm not going to say I'm going to go to this black gym. You just say you're going to go to the gym. You just happen to come. We just want to be recognized as a gym, not just hey, this is a black-owned gym. How can we just can't be right next to LA Fitness? They call that a gym.

Billy: Right. LA is just down the road.

Daleco: I'm going to go to the gym. Hey, what gym are you going to? I'm going to go to WURK.

Maurice: But you found out that that stuff became a lot more popular, especially with everything that happened last year with George Floyd. All of a sudden, all these magazines and everybody wanted now post these things. But it's almost like, for whatever reason — I know whatever the reason. Because we understand the business. You have a certain audience. We have certain readers. If you go back and read some of these, not all the time. If you go back and look over all, a gym like this is never in their top 10. It just isn't. It never is. Because the audience and the readers you have are not coming in here. So, you can't be a top gym unless we start breaking out, well, you're black-owned, or you're this big. I was like, no, we can compete with any gym. We can be mentioned as any gym. Any gym wants anything to do it, you can come get it. That's how we feel about it.

So, when you look at a lot of gyms, they were at top 10. What was the criteria? What was it? If you find that, it was boutique stuff. It was really a small gym. This gym is like — the same thing when they had all the restaurants. Those restaurants should be in there with everybody else. You don't have to whittle down this list. You can only make it if we take this part out. Well, you can't be this. You can't be that. You are only top 10 if you are black-owned, if you're black. I was like, that's bullshit, man. Put us up against any of these other gyms you think are better than us or are the top class, and we'll give them a run for the money and probably run past them.

I say that with confidence. It's like we have a fighter here named Akil. It's like saying, oh, she's tough for a girl. Akil will mop out most dudes. She ain't tough for a girl. She's tough, period. She's a tough person. She's tough. She's an accomplished fighter. She's a conditioned fighter. She's got an acolyte under her belt. If you say anything like, oh, she's tough for a girl, I challenge you to do the walk in and say it to her first. It probably won't go well for you.

It's like, you start taking the criteria. You start minimizing people's success and their accomplishments and what they're capable of. Because you're like, well, you won't make it in this category, so we got to make a special category for you. It's bullshit, man. I challenge you. Give us the same category as everybody else, where you put in these top gyms at or whatever it may be. Again, tell me what the criteria is. I guarantee you; we'll blow that shit out the water. Because we got mentioned in it twice. I don't want to be like — hey, we appreciate. Any type of mention is great. We appreciate it. Definitely appreciate it being mentioned with some of the other things in other businesses that we respect. But they whittle it down like that all the time. Because, all of a sudden, now it's popular to do that.

Daleco: We don't want to be put in this box.

Maurice: No, don't put us in a box. We are a part of the fitness community for the Twin Cities. Period. We were just as good as any other gym out there — not just the black ones but all of them all together. I just didn't like that they just, "Well, you can't get into this club unless we shorten this thing. Because you don't meet the criteria for the other things." I'm just like, I disagree with it. Some people will be like, "Well, they were just highlighting you." It's nice to be highlighted. Don't get me wrong. But also, highlight us as one of the best gyms or gyms to visit — period — in the Twin Cities. Not because of our skin color, but because of what we have here, because of what we can do, our expertise, anything.

So, there's a lot of things. There are a lot of boxes we check that aren't black of why we are a great gym. I don't want that to be the main box checked when we have all these other. Because then, you minimize all our other shit that we can do.

Billy: The reason why we wanted to be here is because we like to highlight people who are local. We're reaching out to all of the people who we feel have a local expertise. Because we're a small podcast. But at the same time, we're here because you guys are outstanding experts in your field, and you guys have one of the most unique gyms in the Twin Cities. Not only that, but you guys are amazingly engaging. This has been one of the best conversations that I think we're ever going to have on this podcast.

Maurice: Oh, thank you.

Brian: We've got to thank you guys. Seriously, this is amazing listening to you. I'm just learning so much, and I know our listeners will, too. It's brilliant.

Billy: I hope that this is our number one listened to podcast, because I think I'm going to listen to it about 8 million times and be like, yeah, I'm going to write that down. I'm going to write that down. Because, for me, as someone who — yes, I'm a certified personal trainer but I'm small potatoes as far as what my expertise is and what my education level is compared to you guys. It's really been an honor for me to follow you guys on Instagram and look at stuff. I mean, don't get me wrong. There are times when I'm looking. I don't know if I agree with that. Then you explain it a little bit later, and I'm like, okay, because I'm an idiot, that's why I didn't—

Maurice: That's why it should be for whatever — to me and Daleco, we don't always see eye to eye but we talk about like that. For whatever reason, I don't know what happened to the softness in this industry about why you can't say something to someone, say, "Hey, I don't agree with this. I don't see your point of view." That's what you should be. But everyone is so afraid to talk to each other. Everyone's so afraid. You're supposed to have a different opinion because you're coming from a different point of view. That's okay.

I tell people all the time, like, "Listen, every post we put is not for you." You're not invited to every single post. Your feelings and your insecurities or whatever your opinion, you're not invited to every single post. If you have a difference of opinion, we welcome anybody. You can hit that comment section, or you can drive over here. Our address is on our profile. You're more than welcome to come over. I'll welcome you if you want to sit down and chat.

The first time me and Daleco, why we work was — our first conversation was training. We talked about in an hour just on our first meeting. He's passionate about training. I'm passionate about training. I want to hear where you're coming from. I want to hear what you're talking about so if we ever have difference — but you realize that some people don't want to solve a solution. They just want to yell and scream.

A lot of times when people if you want to approach — this hasn't happened to us — if you want to start being insulting and you want to start yelling and screaming, you're not interested in having a conversation. You're interested in hearing your own voice. That's what you're interested in. So, we don't have time for that shit. But if you want like, "Hey, listen. I disagree with that," okay, tell me your point. Where are you coming from with it? That's okay. I'm all right. Okay. Well, let me see. Maybe I hear a point of view that I wasn't looking at. We don't know everything. We know a fair amount, but we haven't experienced everything in this industry. Maybe you see something different than we do. That's okay to be like, "Hey, listen. What about this? I heard this is okay." Okay. Well, this is where I'm coming from.

For whatever reason, just that cordial conversation cannot happen without everyone's feelings and tears and shit happen. I don't know what happened. This energy could be used to be able to say, I disagree with you. That's okay. That's all right. We can talk about that. If even after we talk and we still don't disagree, I still like you as a person. I don't hate you as a person. I still think everything is good. That's how you get better.

I think people are missing it because we've gotten soft, soft as baby shit now that nobody wants to get better by disagreeing. That's how you become a better trainer. We're good at what we did because when we first started, people told us we were fucking up. That's how you become a better trainer. You don't know everything. There's no way.

Brian: That's life.

Maurice: You don't know all the coaching cues. The body, there's a lot going on into it. You have a lot of really smart people who are in there breaking it down piece by piece. Okay. Well, let's look at it from this standpoint. It doesn't mean that you may be wrong, but maybe there's a different approach to it. Maybe you just haven't gotten to it yet.

All of those things are okay. You should hit the comment section, like, "Hey, I see it differently." Okay. Tell me about it. Then that's how it should be. I don't know. The softness has just gotten people like your feelings about shit. I don't know. But we're missing opportunities to become better trainers, better people, better business owner, better overall by being shy and not saying how you feel about you. That's what you should do. We welcome you. By all means, if you don't agree with something, put it in the comment section. I'll talk back to you all day long.

Billy: Well, we want to thank you guys for the conversation that we got to have with you today. I second come on down to WURK Gym here in Minnetonka, Minnesota. Check it out. It's like no other place. So, thank you guys very, very much. Take care friends.

Maurice: Thank you.

Daleco: Thank you.

(break)

Thanks for listening to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. We will do our best to put out new content every Wednesday to help get you over the midweek hump. If you'd like to contact us, or if you have suggestions about what you'd like us to discuss, feel free to email us at mindfulmidlifecrisis@gmail.com or follow us on Instagram @mindful_midlife_crisis. Check out the show notes for links to the articles and resources we referenced throughout the show. Oh, and don't forget to show yourself some love every now and then, too. And now, back to the show.

(closing interview)

Billy: Welcome back to the Mindful Midlife Crisis. Brian, you actually had the opportunity to do a training session with Daleco, what was that like?

Brian: It was amazing. You think about boxing as, okay, you get into a ring and you're just hitting people, right? It's not at all like that. It's extremely complex. Like with anything, any skill, you have to learn — learning how to even turn your foot when you're swinging your right hand or the fact that you step forward when you're jabbing with your left, how to duck properly. I was not ducking properly. I'm going to tell you this right now. It was—

Billy: You get slapped around a little bit?

Brian: Well, I did. Every time I got slapped, I owed him three push-ups, too. It was a great workout. I'm fit. I work out a lot. He kicked my ass. It was great. It was exactly what I was looking for. But my mind wasn't quite ready to put the brain and body together as quickly as it needed to go, at the pace it needs to go for boxing.

There are so many things to think about such as when you're guarding your face, when you're at there already and you have your fists in front of your face. When you're punching, you can't let your left hand down when you're punching with your right. Then you got to bring it right back. If you're going to punch with your left, you got to make sure that right hand is in front of your face. Then gauging the person's reach and where you are in the ring. There are thousand things you got to be thinking about when you're boxing and not to get your ass completely kicked.

It was fascinating. It was a great workout. Daleco is a consummate professional. His experience was amazing. I got a little anecdote here. Before we started, I said, "Daleco, how many fights you've been in?" He goes, "I don't know, man. About 60." I'm like, "60?" He says, "Yeah, but it was amateur." I'm like, "I don't care. You've been in 60 fights. It doesn't matter if they're amateur or not."

Billy: Wow.

Brian: I know. It's crazy. But his experience showed through in the entire lesson. He was really great. You just knew the guy knows what he's talking about, and has a passion for coaching people. So, if you're looking for a good boxing coach, he's your guy.

Billy: That's not something that I've ever thought about doing. I guess, I think maybe I'm a little too passive for that kind of thing. But what I really liked about their setup is the equipment that they have there is designed to keep you strong, like Maurice was talking about when they're using that belt squat machine so that you can do squats. Even though you're not able to do a squat the right way, you can use that squat belt machine and still keep your legs strong. They have that leg press machine that you can do single leg presses on.

Just the way that they have that space set up and the equipment that they have is really a testament to their depth of knowledge when it comes to fitness. So, it was such an awesome interview. It was a lot of fun to hang out with them. Brian, are you going to go get your ass kicked by Daleco again?

Brian: I'm going to, yeah. It was a really good workout. It was a lot of fun.

Billy: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Daleco and Maurice, for your time. We really, really appreciated it. We had a great time interviewing you guys. We had a great time hanging out at your gym and interviewing you inside the boxing ring. That was a badass experience for sure.

So, for Brian, this is Billy. Thank you for listening to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. May you feel happy, healthy, and loved. Take care friends.

(outro)

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