Episode 2–Why Are Middle-Aged Men the Most At-Risk for Suicide?

In today's episode, Billy and Brian discuss research around why middle-aged men may be so susceptible to contemplating, attempting, or dying by suicide. They also discuss their own issues with mental health and addiction.

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If we have money left over after covering our fees, we will make a donation to the Livin Foundation, which is a non-profit organization whose mission is to promote a positive outlook on life, reduce the stigma associated with depression/mental illness, and ultimately prevent suicide through various activities, events, & outreach.

This episode uses the following resources:
--American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. 2020. Suicide Statistics. Available at: https://rb.gy/wazpqv
--“I Need a Psychiatrist/Psychotherapist but Can’t Afford It. Where Can I Find Affordable Treatment?” National Alliance on Mental Illness, 2020, https://rb.gy/1bsk31
--Mayo Clinic. 2020. Drug Addiction (Substance Use Disorder) - Symptoms And Causes. [online] Available at: <https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/drug-addiction/symptoms-causes/syc-20365112>.
--Mayo Clinic. 2020. Suicide And Suicidal Thoughts - Symptoms And Causes. [online] Available at: <https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/suicide/symptoms-causes/syc-20378048>.
--National Suicide Prevention Hotline: 1-800-273-8255 (TALK)
--Nimh.nih.gov. 2020. NIMH » Suicide. Available at: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml
--Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration Hotline: 1-800-662-4357 (HELP)
--Thornton, J., 2020. Men And Suicide: Why It's A Social Issue. Available at: https://media.samaritans.org/documents/Men-and-Suicide-Report-Samaritans.pdf

Transcript

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Billy Lahr: Welcome to the Mindful Midlife Crisis. I'm your host Billy and as always, I'm joined by my good friend Brian on the Bass. Brian, how you doing over there? 

Brian Chelminiak: Fantastic, Billy, thanks. 

Billy Lahr: You got a rockin a replacement shirt. Nice. 

Brian Chelminiak: Absolutely is there's no day that's a bad day for a replacement shirt. I just want to let you know.

Billy Lahr: You know we've talked a little bit about your musical tastes or our musical tastes. Who was your influence to play the Bass? 

Brian Chelminiak: To play the Bass, It was actually I started out as a guitar player and I got together in the first time it jammed with anybody it was a roomful of guitar players. So there's eight guitar players that this get together. Nobody plays anything else. So I said, well, I'll try the Bass, what the hell. So I ended up trying the Bass and my other buddy went to drums. He was a guitar player too. And then we formed a band from there. So it was very accidental that I was a Bass player actually. 

Billy Lahr: So was your band, seven guitar players a Bass player and a drummer? 

Brian Chelminiak: No, no, no, we just rotated in and out that time. We just gotten together with a bunch of buddies. But then subsequently, I kept just playing the Bass. I was like this, this isn't so bad. I'll take the Bass. 

Billy Lahr: So who were your musical influences to play the guitar?

Brian Chelminiak: I don't think I had any specific influences. I just wanted to play the guitar. I never saw somebody in what I want to be like him. I just said playing the guitar is cool. So I want to do that. 

Billy Lahr: Excellent. Excellent. What was your first band called? 

Brian Chelminiak: The buttermilk five. Because we were all at Perkins at three in the morning. And we're like, we got to come up with a bad name because we had been out as you can imagine drinking and we stole it off of the Perkins name, so we call the buttermilk five.

Billy Lahr: That, oh my gosh, that is a fantastic band name. 

Brian Chelminiak: Yes, thank you. 

Billy Lahr: I would go see the buttermilk five. 

Brian Chelminiak: The band right after that was for amusement only and that was stolen off of a pinball machine. 

Billy Lahr: So what was, what did you guys play? 

Brian Chelminiak: Classic Rock stuff. 

Billy Lahr: Gotcha. Oh man, the first band that I was in was called the glory hogs. 

Brian Chelminiak: The glory hogs. That's pretty good too, though. 

Billy Lahr: That's Yeah, the reason we came up with that because we were, we couldn't have been for more like arrogant 20 something musicians and we all rotated so like, I primarily sing, but then I also played Bass on some songs and then the guy who is playing Bass would move to like drums or move the guitar. You know, you know my buddy Willard? 

Brian Chelminiak: Oh, yeah, yeah, that's great. 

Billy Lahr: Yeah, so he would drum some sometimes or he would sing and play guitar. 

Brian Chelminiak: So talented guy Willard 

Billy Lahr: He can do anything. 

Brian Chelminiak: He really can. 

Billy Lahr: He's a fan. He's unbelievable. But then our buddy Lee could just shred on a guitar and our friend Chris could play Bass guitar and drums, but he preferred to play in drums. So whenever we would, like play something, we like you know, somebody would show up somebody else on an instrument. And so we'd like to quickly in a glory hog. So we just said, you know what, we're going to call ourselves the glory hawks is all we're going to do is just upstage people wherever we go. 

Brian Chelminiak: The worst thing in the world is coming up with a band name. I'm telling you, it’s awful. 

Billy Lahr: I love it. I like i guess i think that's maybe the English teacher in me that I like coming up with the titles for things like that. So like, if anybody's out there, and you need a good band name one. Go to Perkins. 

Brian Chelminiak: Steal something off the menu 

Billy Lahr: Or let me know because I'd love to. I'd love to give your band a sweet name. Send me some of your demos. Make sure they don't suck. 

Brian Chelminiak: You should have been in the room when the brute squad was trying to decide on a name. I think we went through 764 different names, including corrupted dump truck. What was it? Oh, there was something about ninjas. The Blues machine was another incarnation of that band. 

Billy Lahr: Well that yeah, you guys were blues machine before you were brute squad. 

Brian Chelminiak: Exactly right, the blues machine. But we had when we when it came time to change the name from the blues machine to something else. It was, I wish I remember the ninja because it was funny. I'll have to look it up because I have all that information. But it's very, it was almost impossible for us to decide on the name until the brute squad came along. And then we're like, oh, yeah, that's 

Billy Lahr: Oh, and it's I mean, folks, if you have not ever seen the brute squad one you're missing. They're the most dangerous cover band out there, they are just classic rock and soul. It's so there. You guys are so good. The brute squad fits to a tee. 

Brian Chelminiak: Oh yeah, it's perfect. That's really perfect. 

Billy Lahr: Because you guys you guys are all pretty tall. You know pretty husky guys like you. It just fits to a tee. And I said Husky, so I just want Matt and Pete, you're out there, I said Husky because I love you. I miss your faces very, very much. I hope to see you all soon. 

Brian Chelminiak: The Ninja code

Billy Lahr: The ninja. 

Brian Chelminiak: Oh, that was called the ninja code. 

Billy Lahr: That's tough. I'd go see that movie 

Brian Chelminiak: Corrupted dump truck, the ninja code. We had a few other ones that were embarrassing. Oh, as well.

Billy Lahr: So it's good that we're starting out on a light note today. Because our episode, it's gonna be a heavy one. Because we're going to be discussing suicide, particularly some of the research behind why men are age commit suicide. So before we get started, we just want to share a few things. First of all, remember that in no way shape or form, Brian and I are experts. We're your armed share life coaches. 

Brian Chelminiak: That's right. We've been through a lot of stuff. So we're hoping that our experience could save you some headache. 

Billy Lahr: Yeah. So we're just simply going to share this information and share our thoughts on it with you. If we'll make sure that we put the research in the show notes. So you can pour through it on your own and you can come to your own conclusions if you so choose. 

Brian Chelminiak: I would like you guys to think exactly how I think actually, you have no latitude to be your own person. Yeah, this is kind of like did you not know that we were trying to brainwash everybody thinking exactly like us. 

Billy Lahr: That's why we have Brian loves to do his own research. And when he comes back and educates you all, you should take that in and be that person. When we say [inaudible 09:18] life coaches, what we really mean is that we want you to be exactly like us. 

Brian Chelminiak: Yeah. As if we are your gods to worship. 

Billy Lahr: Have you ever seen the movie they live with Rowdy Roddy Piper?

Brian Chelminiak: How could you not see, that movie is great? 

Billy Lahr: Yeah, think of us as the black sunglasses. 

Brian Chelminiak: That's right. 

Billy Lahr: That way you can see the signs of conformity. Obviously, we're joking. We're you know, we're two middle aged dudes talking about a subject that we feel isn't talked about enough. And we hope that this tiny little podcast with its dozens of listeners, shed some light for you on why suicide particularly suicide amongst middle aged men is a crisis. That's not to say we don't care about other age demographics. We're just focusing on this age demographic because Brian and I, and our friends are all pretty much in this age demographic. So it's personal to us. 

Brian Chelminiak: We feel as though we can speak with a little authority on that. Yeah, a little I emphasize little, a very little. 

Billy Lahr: And if you are an expert, and you want to come on to our show

Brian Chelminiak: And tell us we're wrong

Billy Lahr: We would welcome that, we would welcome that. Unless your name is Kathleen, then you shouldn't come onto the show and tell us that we're wrong. Because you probably do enough of that at home. So just take a break. Al right, Kathleen take a break from all that. But we love you. One of us loves you more than the other just to be clear. 

Brian Chelminiak: That's document. 

Billy Lahr: Yeah, absolutely. If what if what we discuss in this episode resonates with you or…

Brian Chelminiak: Makes you uncomfortable.

Billy Lahr:  Yeah, absolutely. Or it evokes emotional response. We strongly encourage you to seek out support, there are a variety of resources available to you. One of the easiest that you can use is calling the Suicide Prevention hotline. And the phone number there is 1-800-273-8255 and phone numbers, 1-800-273 talk, I also took a quick look at what the good people at the National Alliance of mental illness have to offer. And they actually have an article titled “I need a psychiatrist, psychotherapist, but I can't afford it”. Where can I find affordable treatment, and we like that in the show's notes, as well. So feel free to check that out. If you're thinking you know, what these guys are talking about, maybe would be helpful to talk to a therapist. I just can't afford it. Go to www.nami.org it's www.nami.org. If you'd like to learn more about their services

Brian Chelminiak: The LIVIN foundation is another really good resource or there's a local DJ Paul Thomas here, who does just a great job with that foundation and helps a lot of people and he's always very active and very vocal about helping people. So that's the LIVIN foundation. 

Billy Lahr:  Is that just locally in Minnesota or is that nationwide? 

Brian Chelminiak: I mean, they have a national number, I believe like an 800 number but most of the events are local. 

Billy Lahr:  Yes, gotcha. 

Brian Chelminiak: Like they do concerts. They even have the live in music festival they like said he's very active and very out there and very passionate about helping people we should get him on. 

Billy Lahr:  I was just gonna say he sounds like a potential future guests. 

Brian Chelminiak: He's a good guy too.

Billy Lahr:  And finally, if you're concerned about a loved one's mental health or substance abuse, the Mayo Clinic suggests looking for the following warning signs. Talking about suicide, for example, making statements such as I'm going to kill myself, I wish I were dead. I wish I hadn't been born. Getting the means to take their own life, such as buying a gun, or stockpiling pills. In the next episode, I'm going to tell you about struggle with my own mental health and struggle with suicidal ideation. If I'm being frank, there's a reason I don't own a gun. And there's a reason I don't have a gun because my fear is that I'd be more inclined to use it on myself than for protection. And that's a real fear that I have had in the past and I've worked through that fear. And so you don't have to worry about me anymore. But that is something that that kind of comes to mind. And if you have ever checked out a camera or what book it is by Malcolm Gladwell, but he talks about a correlation between the means of suicide and suicide numbers dropping. If I figure it out, I'll let you guys know what that what book that one is. He's got a lot of them out there 

Brian Chelminiak: Outliers, the Tipping Point, blink talking to strangers 

Billy Lahr:  It might be outliers. Now that I think about it now that you've been benched. 

Brian Chelminiak: Did you see how great of a job I did as you did as a show producer? 

Billy Lahr:  I just you were struggling and i just i swooped down and did it. That ladies and gentlemen is what we call total support. 

Brian Chelminiak: You guys if you want to witness professionalism, you just look to [inaudible 14:35]

Billy Lahr:  And if you want to look for two people who support one another and bring out the best in one another and you know when I come in and maybe I'm a little down, Brian is there to lift me back up. He is my trampoline. 

Brian Chelminiak: And you know as I look at this, Malcolm Gladwell not only has a cadre of helpful books, but his hair is wonderful. 

Billy Lahr:  It's amazing. 

Brian Chelminiak: That is really nice. 

Billy Lahr:  His hair is amazing he is somebody who does probably does not have this, this warning sign withdrawing from social contact and wanting to be left alone because why would you if you had hair like that.

Brian Chelminiak: I'm a little jealous. I mean, he's got quite it's one of those tight curl stand up hair styles. It's wonderful. 

Billy Lahr:  He's the wild Dude, I don't know, if you listen to much, Malcolm Gladwell, but he's pretty wild dude. 

Brian Chelminiak: I'm gonna now just because of the hair now that I've seen the hair. It's amazing. 

Billy Lahr:  He's got a podcast called revisionist history. And I feel like it's very popular. And I figured since we mentioned his podcast, then he in turn will mention our so I'm putting that out in quid pro quo, the universe in this that's fair, that'd be great. If your loved one is having mood swings, such as being emotionally high one day and deeply discouraged. The next, being preoccupied with death, dying or violence. Right here, that is something that that I'll talk about in the next episode. Feeling trapped or hopeless about a situation, increasing use of alcohol or drugs. Changing normal routine, including eating or sleeping patterns, doing risky or self-destructive things, such as using drugs or driving recklessly. Giving away belongings or getting affairs in order when there's no other logical explanation for doing this. Saying goodbye to people as if they won't ever see them again. And finally, developing personality changes or being severely anxious or agitated, particularly when experiencing some of the warning signs listed above. So with all that in mind, let's take a look at what's truly become a global pandemic. Here are some staggering statistics around suicide that we found from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and the National Institute of Mental Health websites. In 2019, 48,344 Americans committed suicide making it the 10th leading cause of death in the United States. The total suicide rate in the United States has increased by over 35% in the last 20 years. That one's wild to me. In 2019, the US averaged 132 suicides per day, firearms accounted for over 50% of all suicides in 2009. Suicide was the second leading cause of death amongst 10 to 34 year olds, and the fourth leading cause of death amongst 35 to 54 year olds. And out of the 48,000 plus suicides, the rate of suicide was highest among middle aged white men at nearly 70% of all suicide. It is that last figure that we want to explore today, because we find it so incredibly alarming. So the first thing that we're going to do today is take a look at a five year study, the Samaritans, which is a charity out of Great Britain, dedicated to reducing feelings of isolation and disconnection that can lead to suicide. They conducted this research, they partnered with Network Rail, which is essentially a railway company in Great Britain. I don't know much about it. But the reason why they partnered together is because they wanted to get a better understanding of the suicide crisis over across the pond. So one thing to keep in mind here as we go through this is they focused more on middle aged men in low socio economic position. So blue collar positions, which is most likely why the Network Rail got involved in this. But what they found in their research is strikingly similar to what Brian and I are seeing in our own research that we've poured through in the past as well. And you know, we're just trying to make better sense of why so many middle aged men are finding suicide to be their only way out of a life of loneliness and misery. The end of the episode, we will provide their recommendations for reducing suicide in this group of men. So we will do our best to share all this information as well. So it shines a bright spotlight on the causes of this global health crisis. Because you know, we have friends who are in this age range, this is me and Brian, right. This is our demographic. Though it's kind of focusing on men. I imagine that you have brothers or husbands and or you know, depending on how old you are in listening to this, maybe it's a son, it's an uncle, it's a nephew. It's somebody that you love, that may be going through something, and it's unfortunately common in this age demographic. So we want to get a better understanding of that. 

Brian Chelminiak: If you reach this age and you haven't your life hasn't been touched by suicide in some way. Consider yourselves lucky. Because I know both Billy and I have had personal experience with it, unfortunately. And it's very common. 

Billy Lahr:  And it's brutal. It's brutal for everybody involved. And so really, we're here to offer some insight and hopefully, maybe a path towards healing. That's what these next couple episodes are actually going to be about. They're not going to be about me hitting puberty, as you just heard my voice. It's not No, because we've already I've already gone through it. 

Brian Chelminiak: But that would be a good story. 

Billy Lahr:  It is, it would be it's actually not a great story. It is actually very, very sad and pathetic story. 

Brian Chelminiak: Well, maybe that would help some people. 

Billy Lahr:  It evolves mostly acne and awkwardness, and I'm guessing everybody's, but no. So our next yeah, here's kind of the run of our next few episodes. Because remember, keep in mind that I taught English for 15 years. So I always have a lesson plan ahead, and I'm looking forward. So this episode is going to talk about the suicide pandemic. And then the next episode is going to talk about my own struggles with mental health, and how I was able to use mindfulness in order to navigate my way out of that. And then we believe we are going to get mindfulness guru, Sarah Rudell Beach from brilliant mindfulness on the third episode in this trilogy

Brian Chelminiak: That'll be great. 

Billy Lahr:  Yeah, it'd be wonderful because she knows I practice mindfulness and but she is like a legit certified expert in mindfulness. 

Brian Chelminiak: I mean, we're getting real experts on this show. 

Billy Lahr:  We are 

Brian Chelminiak: Wow

Billy Lahr:  Listen, for a tiny podcast. We're kind of a big deal. 

Brian Chelminiak: Moving on

Billy Lahr:  I mean, we have 

Brian Chelminiak: Before we do that, before we go serious, you gave me a great idea. I think we should start a band and call it acne and awkwardness. 

Billy Lahr:  Oh, no, let's call it puberty. And in our first album will be called acne. 

Brian Chelminiak: Oh, I like where you're going with that. 

Billy Lahr:  Yeah, yep, absolutely. So that's gonna be good. So I play the ukulele, which is you hear that in the intro that's me. And so if, if you're blown away by that, and you want to hire me for parties, I'm available. 

Brian Chelminiak: There's not enough ukulele and Bass music out there. 

Billy Lahr:  I agreed. And I also used to play Bass. And then I moved to ukulele because I only can only handle four strings. That's, that's all called 

Brian Chelminiak: Can you pass four strings, that's your limit?

Billy Lahr:  I only have the talent to manipulate four strings at any given time on any given instrument. 

Brian Chelminiak: So I know the feeling, buddy. 

Billy Lahr:  Yeah, yep. Well, you at least play guitar at one point in time

Brian Chelminiak: But I do play guitar. That's true.  Alright, but I only use four strings. Right. Yeah, I'm playing [inaudible 23:02] band. Sometimes only two. 

Billy Lahr:  Here we go. Let's, we're gonna talk about this, this serious issue here. And as you can see, here's what we don't want. We don't want you to think that we're making light of this in any way, shape, or form. 

Brian Chelminiak: Absolutely not. But we have an obligation to make this entertaining for you, whilst we're conveying the very serious information. 

Billy Lahr:  Agreed, agreed. And you know, we'll talk about this. But Brian and I have bought, like we said, we both been through some of this. And since we've been able to get through the storms, we weathered the storm, we are able to kind of to laugh it off a little bit. And you know, hopefully you're listening to this. What we don't want is we don't want this episode to turn into like an Allison chain song. Don't get me wrong. We love Allison chains. Love Allison chain 

Brian Chelminiak: That could be considered therapy, sometimes. 

Billy Lahr:  It very much so very much so. But when you listen to songs, like nutshell, or dirt, sometimes those sound like suicide notes. And we want to you know, yes you may go into that, and then you're able to feel that intensely and get out of it. We don't want you to hear what we're saying. And the tone that we're saying and be very serious and Matter of fact, and then have that exacerbate some of those feelings of isolation and despair that that you currently have. It's possible that my incredibly nasally voice that sounds like I'm talking on a YouTube video at 1.25 speed, like maybe that will drive you crazy. But that's why I've instructed Brian to interrupt me. 

Brian Chelminiak: We've actually prefer that you listen to this and realize that at least you're not as big losers as we are, and feel good about yourself. That's what should be happening. 

Billy Lahr:  Do you see how we go from delusions of grandeur and then just minimize ourselves like that's, that is the roller coaster of… 

Brian Chelminiak: This is our broadcasting toolbox on display for you guys, okay?

Billy Lahr:  Alright, let's get to the background of this of this research conducted by the Samaritans, this is really wonderful, thorough in depth research, I strongly encourage you to check out the link that is in the show notes. So just to provide some background and really I'm just going to share the summary of what they have here. I mean, the end, my apologies to the Samaritans, I'm kind of going to read it word for word, but I'm giving you credit for it. So this is these are mostly not my own words, this comes straight from them, so I don't want them to come to us and be like, hey, you're plagiarizing? No, this is all from the Samaritans. So men from the lowest social class living in the most deprived areas are up to 10 times more likely to end their lives by suicide than those in the highest social class, from the most affluent areas, men in midlife, are the age group most at risk. The researchers don't really understand enough about why this age group is so vulnerable to suicide. And the found that suicide prevention strategies and research tend to come from an individual mental health perspective, rather than a social, economic and cultural perspective. 

Brian Chelminiak: I would think that would be also it's good. That's counterintuitive, I would think young and old. Because typically, when you think about suicide, you think oh, teenagers, or you know that tumultuous time in your life when you're developing and you don't know who you are, and all that stuff, but and old, I could see illnesses. But that that's actually quite a fascinating statistic. 

Billy Lahr:  And I wonder, I wonder how much of that in this research is going to tie back to if you remember, when we talked in the last episode about like, what a what a midlife crisis is. And there was that bell curve where, when that when people are in it, when they're between the ages of 40 and 60, they say that they are not satisfied with their life. But when they get to age 70, 75 and they're asked to reflect on their life, they say that they felt the most productive, they felt the most successful in those times. So I feel like there's the light at the end of the tunnel is that if you're able to get through this, you'll look back on your life. And you'll be able to say it was those times that when I was maybe when I didn't feel as fulfilled, or I didn't feel as satisfied that really, I was and I just had to get through it in order to appreciate it. So they identified six characteristics in people in the men that they researched. And the first characteristic here that I'm going to talk about is personality traits. They talked about how there isn't like a suicide mentality. But there are certain personality traits and mindsets that contribute to the development of suicidal thoughts. For example, perfectionism, self-criticism, rumination and brooding, or having no positive thoughts about the future, when I read this, that I identified with this entirely, this is really what the next episode is going to be about. Because all of those things that I just listed, those are all things that make up that makes up that personality component of me and that the things that I have to struggle with. And so then when those things interact with factors like deprivation, or unemployment, social disconnection, or a triggering events, like a relationship breakdown or job loss, then that all becomes this, this recipe for increasing suicide risk. Now, they also talked about masculinity, and how that plays a role in possibly being a trait that leads to these men committing suicide here. What they meant by that is, there's the stereotype of the man providing for his family. 

Brian Chelminiak: Or the man can handle it to you know, whatever comes if you're not a real man, unless you can handle.

Billy Lahr:  Exactly the fact that Brian and I are here talking about our feelings. It's probably the least manly thing that we can do, right. You know, because men don't talk about their feelings. That's a woman thing. Actually Brian, I'm kind of curious. I've asked you this before, but you're the provider for your family, correct? 

Brian Chelminiak: Yeah. 

Billy Lahr:  What does that create any undue stress for? 

Brian Chelminiak: No, because I've embraced the role, you know what I mean? I realized that when before I had children, it was going to be my responsibility to take care of them. You know what I mean? So of course, my wife and I have one of the best partners in the entire world. I mean, she is so amazing. I can't tell you enough how much she does. It's so amazing. Every day, she amazes me. But no, I've internalized it though. So there's no conflict for me. You know, I know, it's my responsibility. I've internalized it. And that's what I'm going to do no matter what. So for me, it's not you know how I go about that. Fortunately, I haven't been put in a position to wonder about that for a long time. But with the pandemic, that stuff comes into play you know, what I mean thing, oh my gosh, what if, what if something happens, and I don't have a job, and I'm not able to take care of my family, but you take the best steps you can to ensure that your future is gonna be what you want it to be. 

Billy Lahr:  I'm always impressed with how positive you approach that your relationships and your, just the mental fortitude that you have, as you approach anything in life. And nothing really seems like a conflict for you. Because you see it as opportunity 

Brian Chelminiak: The Winston Churchill actually had a quote, and it was something to the effect of the pessimist will see problems in every opportunity, and the optimist will see opportunity in every difficulty. 

Billy Lahr:  And I think that fits you to a tee. So the one thing that is interesting in here that I think also connects with you, and this is going to be an episode that we're going to save for down the road is, men more so than women respond to stress by taking more risks, and they are more inclined to misuse, alcohol and drugs. And that use can lead to becoming violent or even lethal. And so we're gonna we're gonna take a look at that somewhere down the road. Relationship breakdown, this is something that kind of spiraled me out of control of many, many years ago. I've never been married, but just being you know, having someone break up with you that's, that's no fun. It really it just is no fun. 

Brian Chelminiak: Well, I don't know if she's awful to you may be it could be fun. 

Billy Lahr:  But well, and the funny thing is, I had someone who was not nice to me. And even still, that breakup was not fun. I think that just carried over into that 

Brian Chelminiak: If you're not initiating it, that that can be tough on the ego within. 

Billy Lahr:  Here's so I'm reading through this. And this is kind of interesting here. It says that some suicides in men are motivated by the desire to punish their ex-partner, or maybe an impulsive reaction to an ex-partner beginning a new relationship

Brian Chelminiak: I could see that absolutely.

Billy Lahr:  I can identify with that as well, because just that thought of them being with somebody else had spiraled me into really deep, dark thoughts. So I just found that fascinating. That was another thing that jumped out to me as something I connected with when my own personal life. It says here that men are more likely to be separated from children. And this plays a role in some men's suicides. I think about the number of like, I think about the parents at the school, where I'm at. And if I look, and I see two different addresses, that I know that most likely they have two families. And if I talk to those students, a lot of times they're at mom's most of the time, and then they go to dad's you know, maybe on the weekend, or just a couple days a week

Brian Chelminiak: That seems to be pretty typical, I would say my experience too

Billy Lahr:  For you, I kind of curious to hear, you know, the role that the children play your children, you have three boys what they play, excuse me in your life? 

Brian Chelminiak: While they're the most important thing to me in the entire world. So of course, I could see how that would be a contributing factor to you know, again that would be goes right along with the punishment aspect of this too you know, to punish the partner, because the kids will be you know, upset that obviously, you know, that person is not there anymore. I could, that all makes perfect sense. 

Billy Lahr:  And that's and it feels so almost sinister that someone would think that but that just goes to show just how emotionally damaged that person 

Brian Chelminiak: And desperate I mean, it is suicide is an act of desperation. 

Billy Lahr:  And it ties into the next point that they made about emotional illiteracy. Men can experience a big build that they don't recognize because they don't know how to express it. They don't know how to communicate it and it all gets to a breaking point and then that breaking point leads to something dire. Men are far less positive about getting formal emotional support for their problems compared to women that they see it as a weakness to ask for help to talk about their emotions. I remember years ago, this wasn't in the last 10 years, but it was maybe 15 years ago, something like that. And I was having a conversation with my dad about you know, maybe getting some emotional, maybe going to therapy. And his response was something to the effect of therapy is what nut jobs like that's what therapy is for is for nut jobs, people who and I was like, that might be me, Dad. I hate to break it, sorry. It says here that working class men and women remain much more likely than other groups to be prescribed pharmaceutical drugs to deal with problems in their emotional lives. And we see certainly an overmedication pandemic as well, in particularly in the United States. 

Brian Chelminiak: And that is a very important factor in this too, I think in why suicides are the way they are because this medication is over prescribed. I mean, anytime you're messing with the chemistry of your brain, especially with it as advanced as some of these chemicals are there and what they can do to you. It's really not surprising. 

Billy Lahr:  And I wonder too, if I wonder how much so one of the factors is socioeconomic factors and I wonder how much of that plays a role in people having access to affordable mental health care? 

Brian Chelminiak: Oh, sure. 

Billy Lahr:  And since they can't get that, then they just go to the magic pill. 

Brian Chelminiak: Yeah, everybody wants a pill that makes whatever malady, it is go away. Look at all this stuff. They saw me you can get a pill for damn near anything. If you have toe fungus or a hairy ankles or whatever the hell you get. They usually just prescribe you a pill. 

Billy Lahr:  If you have hairy ankles. You should get a pill. 

Brian Chelminiak: I agree with you that's yeah.

Billy Lahr:  No minor, I have baby soft feet. Because there's really nothing manly about me, as you will add listener, as you get to know me, you're going to realize that is the most feminine dude on the face of the earth like he likes. He likes books and poetry, and you know, walks along the beach. What, this is not a tough guy and I'm not. I'm not in any way, shape or form. 

Brian Chelminiak: I am more of the traditional guy. 

Billy Lahr:  Yes, and I feel like we're a very good balance. 

Brian Chelminiak: Yeah, right. Exactly [inaudible 37:48] as you were saying.

Billy Lahr:  Yeah, we were talking before the show, if you haven't kind of figured out maybe the format of the show, is I'm the straight guy. I'm the play by play and Brian is the color analyst. 

Brian Chelminiak: That's true. 

Billy Lahr:  So that we have a good flow here. We think anyway, maybe you too, or maybe you've already tuned out.

Brian Chelminiak: And you're not hearing this anyway. Screw you.

Billy Lahr:  Exactly. But if you are listening, thank you, we love you. Thank you, please share this podcast with your friends. 

Brian Chelminiak: Here let's do something real quick. I'm going to show you the power of just talking about your feelings. I'm going to let's do a little experiment here. Wherever you are listening, I'm talking to you. And I'm not talking to you, Billy. I'm talking to the listener. I want you to just pause, pause this after you get the instruction that I'm going to give you I want you to pause it and do what I say and see if it changes your feelings at all about yourself. I want you to pause it and I want you to scream I am awesome. So go ahead do it. Push pause and just scream. I'm awesome. Well, let's do it. Go ahead. Okay, now how do you feel? Do you feel better? You should, because you're awesome.

Billy Lahr:  I was visualizing that, and it made me made me just kind of smile. 

Brian Chelminiak: So exactly that's a small exercise in a very, just talking about stuff can oftentimes alleviate a lot of the pressure you're feeling. It may not get rid of it, but it does alleviate the pressure. So to Billy's point, sometimes seeking therapy is not just you don't necessarily have to be damaged or anything like that. But it's very natural for people when they talk about stuff to feel better about it to get it out there. 

Billy Lahr:  That kind of connects to the last thing here. We're talking about challenges of midlife. And I remember did you ever watch [inaudible 39:38] you ever watch that? 

Brian Chelminiak: Probably. 

Billy Lahr:  Okay. So one of his when he's doing the stand-up bit, he's talking about how he made a new friend at his age, right? And just kind of funny because it is kind of weird to make a new friend when you're 40, 45 years old, it's it. I mean, usually you're just kind of friends with the people in your neighborhood now, if you [inaudible 40:09] is it [inaudible 40:11]. I think it's [inaudible 40:12]. She has two books. They're called, one's called the male brain and one's called the female brain. We're actually going to talk about those books here at some point in time, down the road, and [inaudible 40:22]if you're listening, I mean, you probably are, we would love to have you as a guest on our show to talk about those books because you're a brain expert. But one thing she talked about is that women have a need for developing peer relationships, where men are more independent. So if you think about it, as the research says, beyond the age of 30, men have fewer supportive peer relationships than women do. And usually, it's the woman they usually turn to their woman, their partner for emotional support, which then goes back to if you're experiencing relationship breakdown, which would lead to an emotional breakdown. Because you don't have that comfortable resource available to you. 

Brian Chelminiak: I would like to say [inaudible 41:16] hair is also great. 

Billy Lahr:  Is it? 

Brian Chelminiak: Yeah, not in the way Malcolm Gladwell hair is, but she's got in this picture. Anyway, very nice red hair. It's gorgeous. I mean, she's gorgeous.

Billy Lahr:  I feel like that keeps him the theme with the two of us because we both have great hair. 

Brian Chelminiak: That's also true. 

Billy Lahr:  And that's that is not a lie. And ladies, you want a guy with really nice salt and pepper back here. Because Brian's married, but the other guy isn't. 

Brian Chelminiak: That's right. And you know all of his secrets now. There's gonna be no surprises any longer.

Billy Lahr:  Man, how about this, if that does interest you maybe don't listen to the next episode, unless you're attracted to complete nut jobs and head cases.

Brian Chelminiak: So you know which that's another episode all together very much. 

Billy Lahr:  So very much so, very much so. So you know, we'll get to that no secrets here. But here's what we're gonna do. Now we're going to take a break and then when we come back, we're going to talk about what the research recommends in order to address these situations when they arise and what also larger scale communities can do in order to provide support for middle clerics. We middle aged men, and middle aged women who are experiencing suicidal ideation. Thank you for listening to the Mindful Midlife Crisis. 

BREAK: Thank you for listening to the Mindful Midlife Crisis. If you're enjoying what you've heard so far. Please do us a favor and hit the subscribe button. Also giving our show a quick five star review with a few kind words helps us on our quest to reach the top of the podcast charts. Finally, since you can't make a mix tape for your friends and loved ones like you used to do, share this podcast with them instead. We hope our experiences resonate with others and inspire people to live their best lives. Thanks again. And now, let's take a minute to be president with our breath. If you're listening somewhere safe and quiet, close your eyes and slowly inhale 4 3 2 1 hold for 7 6 5 4 3 2 1, slowly exhale for 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1. Let's do that one more time. Inhale for 4 3 2 1, hold for 7 6 5 4 3 2 1, slowly exhale for 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1, go ahead and open your eyes. You feel better? We certainly hope so. And now back to the show.  

Billy Lahr:  Alright, welcome back everybody. Thank you. I hope you went and did something that was refreshing because we just got done having that suicide conversation. Maybe you yelled, I am awesome. 

Brian Chelminiak: If you're still doing that, I just stopped it. Okay, you're awesome. But if you've done it more than three times, now it's becoming an ego problem. Okay, so just ease off on that you are awesome, we'd love you. But you can stop telling everybody that. 

Billy Lahr:  That's funny you say that because that's exactly where I was going. Oh man, man. Alright, how do we get governments? And how do we get health and welfare and social services to take on this challenge of helping people, particularly disadvantaged men in their midlife, get access to resources. So here is what the Samaritans research recommends? Again, so again, this is coming from the Samaritans study that we've been talking about this episode, the first thing that this they recommend is to take on the challenge of tackling the gender and socio economic inequalities and suicide risk. So I think what they mean by that here, is they should explicitly aim to reduce these inequalities, that they should target these demographics. And they don't go into a lot of detail about how to do that. Now, I'm not gonna lie. I'm not a gender study or socio economic professor, I think that is a rather complicated task to take on. And I don't know that I have an answer for that I have my you know, my political views, I'm not going to run rampant with those. I have ideas where we can handle that. But that definitely sounds like one of the more challenging of the recommendations that they provided.

Brian Chelminiak: It's for people much smarter than us. 

Billy Lahr:  Exactly, exactly. So we'll leave that to them. Suicide prevention, policy and practice must take account of men's beliefs, concerns and context. So this is where [inaudible 47:04] would really come in handy, because her book really breaks down how men process and why men behave the way that they do. So I think taking a look at the male brain and understanding what motivates the male brain. It says, we need to move from blaming men for not being like women. So this is actually very interesting here, we need to move from blaming men for not being like women in terms of being open about sharing their feelings. And instead, we need to recognize their needs, and how societal expectations get in the way of men getting support. And we need to understand why men behave the way that they do, and how societal expectations shape their actions. It says we need to remove barriers to men engaging with services and design these to be more effective for men. That's very interesting to me that's really attempting to understand why men act the way that they do. And it really does, in my opinion, it really does get to the heart of those two, the male brain and the female brain books. I would check those out, if you haven't checked those out, Brian and I will talk about the books that we read on here just because it makes for easy conversation. But we also want to recommend books to you that we feel are going to make you a better midlifer. You know what I mean? Because that's, that's one of our goals. One of our goals is to help you get the most out of the second half of your life. Number three here talks about recognize that for men in midlife, loneliness is a very significant cause of their high risk of suicide, and enable men to strengthen and we need to help enable men to strengthen their social relationships. So where we said number one was for people who are smarter than us. Number three, all of us can help in some way, shape or form. I'm willing to bet that we all know men who are in their 30s 40s and 50s who live alone, or don't you know that maybe they've become recluse. Maybe you haven't heard from them in a while. And as I'm saying this, I'm thinking of two or three friends that, I haven't done a very good job of connecting with, especially in COVID times, were really feeling isolated.

Brian Chelminiak: No doubt. I mean, that has to amplify everything. I mean, that people I think are talking about that more and more on how these unintended hidden problems that arise because of the lockdowns and stuff like that. But absolutely, that's got to be a huge contributing factor.

Billy Lahr:  And quite frankly, I look forward to my Fridays with Brian when we record because it's an opportunity for me to interact with an adult, like most of my interaction is with teenagers. And it's different interacting with an adult. It's different interacting with someone who's not a colleague you know? 

Brian Chelminiak: Oh yeah, exactly. Social versus professional today completely different sets of rules. 

Billy Lahr:  Like when I walked in, Brian was rocking out some black flag we were in we were because he and I both love Uncle Henry, we were talking about when we went and saw Uncle Henry, when he came to Burnsville and did his talking show.

Brian Chelminiak: If you guys have an opportunity to hear Henry Rollins talk, I don't care if you've heard of Henry Rollins, if you're a fan of his music, if you hate his music, put all of that aside, and go see his show. The 1 billion I saw, it was like a good friend sitting around telling you about their travel adventures. He just he just outlined this is what happened when I was in this country. And this is the situation that came up and these situations are fantastic. He was telling about how he wound up freezing on a train in Siberia one time and how he was in the DMZ and North Korea and just he's been all these crazy places and has pictures and stories around these trips and it's so fascinating.

Billy Lahr:  If you want you can actually play a drinking game in this podcast where you take a drink every time we talk about how amazing Henry Rollins. 

Brian Chelminiak: It's true drink, right. 

Billy Lahr:  Yeah. In fact, of all the imaginary guests that we will have on our show. He's number one. 

Brian Chelminiak: Oh yeah, sure. There's a standing offer right now. Henry Rollins, if you ever want to come on this show, we will give you an easy chair and a microphone.

Billy Lahr:  We will pay for you to get here. 

Brian Chelminiak: Yeah, absolutely done deal.

Billy Lahr:  Yeah. What do you want? Do you want a hotel room you? You need a flight out here? Let us know, we'll make the arrangements and by we, I mean Brian, because he has a multimillion dollar corporation.

Brian Chelminiak: You know what, although I think this is a real landmark for us, as our podcast just got significantly upgraded. We now have a budget. This like, hey, you know, so we just went from a rinky dinky outfit [inaudible 52:35]

Billy Lahr:  It's awesome. Listen, I told you that the delusions of grandeur. 

Brian Chelminiak: Things are happening my friend. 

Billy Lahr:  Absolutely. Absolutely. We are the Walter Mitty of podcast. 

Brian Chelminiak: Oh wow, from The Secret Life of… 

Billy Lahr:  Yes, indeed. Okay, moving on here to some of the other recommendations, they suggest that we need to identify the explicit links between alcohol reduction and suicide prevention strategies that we need to address the relationships between alcohol consumption, masculinity, deprivation and suicide. People who are or who struggle with alcohol, I can only imagine that it's a depressant, and it's most likely having if you're abusing it. It's having an impact on the way that you approach the stress that you have in your life. I know that it has affected me, Brian, you know, you've got a hell of a story. 

Brian Chelminiak: Oh yeah

Billy Lahr:  That you'll share with us. So if you're struggling with that, you're struggling with that with alcohol addiction, or abuse. We have resources there, are resources out there. In fact, I have one right here. It is the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, you can contact them at 1-800-662-4357. It's 1-800-662 help. 

Brian Chelminiak: Also 866-293-7031 is also another number you can use if they feel more comfortable doing that one. Also call the 867-5309 number and now I have craps. Okay, that last part wasn't true with first part was.

Billy Lahr:  Oh my goodness. Well, it you know if you need a general practitioner. Well, the number is, that's out of our scope. Well, actually with the general practitioners could you know help with the crabs or what we need to do is we need to give general practitioners the ability to recognize signs of distress in men? 

Brian Chelminiak: There you go. That's helpful. 

Billy Lahr:  Yeah, yeah. So we need to be able to coordinate that, or we need to be able to provide them with the resources and education in order to be able to identify those stressors in men, rather than just having them go referring them to, or to me to be able to give them an opportunity to refer them to a therapist. I mean, I imagine that if I'm a general practitioner, and if I'm listening to your heartbeat, and I noticed that there's something irregular in your heart, that I'm able to refer you to you know, a heart cardiologist, right? Well, if you're listening to somebody, and they're showing signs of distress, or they're talking about signs of distress, are we able to refer them to a therapist as opposed to prescribe them a pill, right. And then finally here it says, provide leadership and accountability at the local level. So there is action to prevent suicide. And so this sounds like a grass root recommendation right here, I'm just gonna read this, it says an appropriate public body must have the responsibility to lead and coordinate action across agencies, and the third sector at local level. So what I'm understanding here is we need to have not just large scale agencies. And we need to have local agencies that are on the ground floor, addressing this suicide pandemic. It says here, it's essential if we are to achieve the joined up approach necessary to tackle the many difficulties faced by disadvantaged men, areas of socio economic deprivation should be prioritized. And I feel like that's what our city councils should be addressing is the socio economic issues. And if we are able to address maybe that larger scale, then we're able to have a positive impact not just on mental health and suicide prevention, but having more successful schools and you know, greener parks and what have you, right. Safer communities, what have you. So, City Council the ball is in your court to address some of these areas of socio economic deprivation, so that we're able to live our best lives. Ladies and gentlemen who are listening still, hopefully you made it through this entire episode. Our goals here are to help you live your best life. We are the armchair life coaches, to help you live that best life. And we thank you for taking the time to listen to us today. Tune in the next episode, when I bare my soul to all of you and let you know my own struggles with suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, OCD like tendencies, all around nut job behaviors, 

Brian Chelminiak: Billy, I'm glad you're still here man. 

Billy Lahr:  Hey, I'm glad I am too because otherwise we went to got to see Henry Rollins together? 

Brian Chelminiak: Right, it was worth staying alive for right?

Billy Lahr:  100% and so is the Mandalorian episode that I'm going to go home and watch right. 

Brian Chelminiak: Oh my gosh. I got two of them yet. I got up through the last two. So I'm also going to watch it.

Billy Lahr:  They're so good. They're so good. 

Brian Chelminiak: Just already pause that it's ridiculously good. 

Billy Lahr:  I cannot wait for Brian. This is Billy. May you feel happy, healthy, and loved. Take care of friends.