DISCLAIMER: This episode discusses depression, suicide, and details a suicide attempt. Discretion is advised.
If you or someone you know is struggling with depression or suicidal ideation, please contact the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at 1-800-273-8255 (TALK)
In today's episode, Billy and Brian talk to brothers Lee and Scott about Lee's struggles with depression and his attempt at suicide and how our podcast opened up Scott's eyes to Lee's struggles and how it opened up a dialogue between the two of them.
Thank you for listening to the Mindful Midlife Crisis!
Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Topics you want us to cover?
Email: mindfulmidlifecrisis@gmail.com
Instagram: @mindful_midlife_crisis
Twitter: @mindfulmidlife
We hope you enjoy this week’s episode! If this episode resonates with you, please share it with your friends and family. If you’re really feeling gracious, you can make a donation to https://www.buymeacoffee.com/MMCpodcast. Your donations will be used to cover all of our production costs.
If we have money left over after covering our fees, we will make a donation to the Livin Foundation, which is a non-profit organization whose mission is to promote a positive outlook on life, reduce the stigma associated with depression/mental illness, and ultimately prevent suicide through various activities, events, & outreach.
DISCLAIMER: This episode discusses depression, suicide, and details a suicide attempt. Discretion is advised.
If you or someone you know is struggling with depression or suicidal ideation, please contact the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at 1-800-273-8255 (TALK)
In today's episode, Billy and Brian talk to brothers Lee and Scott about Lee's struggles with depression and his attempt at suicide and how our podcast opened up Scott's eyes to Lee's struggles and how it opened up a dialogue between the two of them.
Thank you for listening to the Mindful Midlife Crisis!
Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Topics you want us to cover?
Email: mindfulmidlifecrisis@gmail.com
Instagram: @mindful_midlife_crisis
Twitter: @mindfulmidlife
We hope you enjoy this week’s episode! If this episode resonates with you, please share it with your friends and family. If you’re really feeling gracious, you can make a donation to https://www.buymeacoffee.com/MMCpodcast. Your donations will be used to cover all of our production costs.
If we have money left over after covering our fees, we will make a donation to the Livin Foundation, which is a non-profit organization whose mission is to promote a positive outlook on life, reduce the stigma associated with depression/mental illness, and ultimately prevent suicide through various activities, events, & outreach.
Please forgive any spelling/grammatical mistakes while we continue to update/edit
our transcriptions. Enjoy the show!
Billy Lahr: Thank you for taking the time to listen to the mindful midlife crisis podcast. We hope you enjoy this week's episode. If this episode resonates with you, please share it with your family and friends. We will do our best to put out new content every Wednesday to get you over the midweek hump. If you want episodes to be downloaded automatically to your phone each week, all you need to do is hit the checkmark subscribe, like or follow button depending on what podcast format you're using. While you're at it, feel free to leave our show a quick five star review with a few kind words so more people like you can easily find our show. If you're really enjoying the show and you want to help us out. Feel free to make a donation to www.buymeacoffee.com/MMCpodcast. That's www.buymeacoffee.com/MMCpodcast. You can also access the link in our show notes. We use the money from these donations to pay whatever expenses we incur from producing the show, but ultimately, we record this show for you. So if you keep listening, we'll keep recording and releasing new episodes each week. Regardless, if you'd like to contact us or if you have suggestions about what you'd like us to discuss on future episodes. Feel free to email us at mindfulmidlifecrisis@ gmail.com or follow us on Instagram @mindful_midlife_crisis. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to the articles and resources we referenced throughout the show. Thanks again for listening. May you feel happy, healthy, and loved. Enjoy the show.
Billy Lahr: Welcome to the mindful midlife crisis. I'm your host Billy and as always, I'm joined by my good friend Brian on the bass. Brian How you doing over there man?
Brian: I'm groovy man groovy.
Billy Lahr: Oh, just groovy. Just.
Brian: Yeah, you gotta tell when you say groovy you can't be like I'm groovy.
Billy Lahr: You just breezy groovy over there. Are you feeling groovy? You're feeling laid back because you're at home in a more comfortable environment.
Brian: Yeah, we're doing a remote session today. So I just stumbled out of bed through a waffle in my mouth. And here I am.
Billy Lahr: Ooh, what do you put on your waffle?
Brian: Nothing butter.
Billy Lahr: What?
Brian: That straight butter. Man I take my waffles straight like a man. None of that fluffy, you know, stuff on it.
Billy Lahr: That's ridiculous. That fluffy stuff is what makes it taste delicious.
Brian: We can't even taste the waffle in.
Billy Lahr: I'm currently taking open requests for new hosts on the show because that is preposterous that you would do such a thing. Okay. So I'm gonna give a shout out [Inaudible at 03:23-03:24]
Brian: Why you just to eat whipped cream and strawberries you know.
Billy Lahr: Well, I'll do that too. Here's what I want. I want the crunch in the waffle. That's really what it's all about.
Brian: Okay, so what do you put on your waffle?
Billy Lahr: I'm a syrup guy. I do like syrup. And I like fruit on there. But famous Dave's brunch has this pecan pre-lean syrup that I would fight anybody to get to because it is that amazing. And I would lose that fight. But it would still be worth it. As long as I got to taste that pecan pre lean syrup. It's unbelievable.
Brian: Well, maybe I'm turned around on this. I've never tried that particular syrup. So maybe this would change my state. But see dude, when I eat food I got to taste the food I'm eating. You know what I mean? Like, I don't use condiments when I eat burgers. Maybe I throw a little mustard on it.
Billy Lahr: Okay. Alright. Yeah, I guess I like sauces. I'm all about the sauces. So that's how I roll? Well, the reason why we're doing a remote here is because we actually have a special episode we're recording on a Saturday morning. And we know that we said last week was our last episode of season 1 but we are actually doing two special episodes. We are talking to three of our listeners these next two episodes. Today we are talking to brothers, Scott and Lee who reached out to us and said hey, your podcast has really had meaning and it's resonated with us and we reached out to them and said well, do you want to talk about why that's the case because we think other listeners may appreciate that and they have agreed to be here. So, Scott and Lee, thank you guys so much for joining us today.
Scott: Yeah, thanks for having us.
Billy Lahr: You guys kind of described yourselves as just normal middle aged guys. Scott has a wife, he's got two teenage kids, just trying to live his best life. Scott works in commercial landscape construction in the Twin Cities area and enjoys spending time with family and friends.
Lee describes himself as an IT guy in Sioux Falls, a divorced single dad with an eight year old daughter and a golden retriever who enjoys sports and they're here to promote healthy emotional communication for men. So guys, we really thank you for being here. We know that it's difficult to put yourself in a vulnerable position like this and share your stories but we are eternally grateful for it.
Scott: Yeah, thanks.
Billy Lahr: So if you guys are listeners obviously, and we checked to verify that you knew what was going on. So we know that your actual legit listeners, so thank you, thank you for being to how have dozens of listeners that we have out there. Could you guys talk about your roles in your life? So sounds like you guys kind of combine them here. So what are the 10 roles that the two of you play in your lives?
Scott: For me, father, husband, son, brother, active adult, professional leader, community leader, sports fan, that's kind of hope for me I guess.
Billy Lahr: Yeah, you said Lake lover and yeah, you said like lover as well, if you're a Minnesota, that's kind of how that goes.
Scott: Right, right [Inaudible at 06:35-06:36]
Billy Lahr: Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, there's 10,000 of you might as well enjoy him over here. So and then so Scott, can you talk about what are the three of those roles that you are looking most forward to in the second half of your life?
Scott: Yeah, I think husband, Lake Lover and traveler actually, for me, roles are starting to shift a little bit. My kids are teenagers. But looking five years in the future, it's gonna be an empty, empty nest. And it's so husband is a big part of that and then the cabin up north and traveling to things that I'm really looking forward to in next phase.
Billy Lahr: So how do you anticipate your role as a husband is shifting once you become empty nesters and how old are your kids?
Scott: 16 and 13.
Billy Lahr: Okay, so you've got some time left? You got five years to transition in here. But how do you see your role as a husband adjusting once you guys become empty nesters?
Scott: Yeah, I still kind of evolving, but we're seeing it already. You know, our kids, they have their own things. They have their own lives, and they have their own interests and our roles with them are definitely less and less every year. So my wife and I have had to really kind of look at how our relationship works you know when it's not just about where you're going and who's getting fed where and who's got hockey and who's got dance, and you actually have to start dating again or hanging out and enjoying each other's company, what are we gonna do? And we can just always go to the bar and drink a whole bunch of beer, whatever. So what are interested in I think that's kind of something we're really looking forward to.
Billy Lahr: I like that you talked about started dating again and so Brian, I'm kind of curious, do you and Kathleen, date? Do you guys still continue to go on dates?
Brian: 100% and I think your outlook on this just the fact that you said dating shows that you're looking at it as an opportunity to kind of rekindle the romance with your wife. No. Yeah, absolutely and yes to answer your question. We absolutely do that we set aside time specifically and call them dates, just to make sure that connection still there, you know.
Billy Lahr: Very cool and then so you talked about traveler, I'm curious. Are you guys looking at more intensive trips as your kids get older and as you guys look to be empty nesters?
Scott: Yeah, definitely. We enjoy it. That's definitely something that the two of us enjoy doing together and it's something that I think we don't know exactly what that looks like or how frequent are aware but we are open minded about it. We would like to see as much as we can. So whatever that looks like and not necessarily just in retirement, you know we want to start that process as soon as the kids are out and we don't have the schedule of dance and hockey and regimented things and we can kind of get away so.
Billy Lahr: Excellent. And then so where's your guys's cabin?
Scott: Leech Lake.
Billy Lahr: Leech Lake so up north from where we are .So for people who are not familiar with Minnesota. Can you describe that area and where it is in the state that they were looking for in the map?
Scott: Yeah, it's about 35 miles south of Bemidji and about an hour north of Brainerd kind of right in the heart of cabin country up north and it's lots of trees and lots of scenery. And that's a fishing and hunting and all of bears. Yeah [Inaudible at 10:09-10:10] Yeah, it's fun.
Billy Lahr: It's a big lake too.
Scott: Big lake, yeah.
Billy Lahr: It's huge like when you look on a map of Minnesota and look kind of in the middle of the state and you see a big blue dot that's Leech Lake right there. It's a big, big lake, not as big as Lake Superior, obviously. But it's one of the largest lakes in the state, if I'm correct.
Scott: Yeah, I think it's like the worth maybe behind the lax and Red Lake and Lake of the Woods.
Billy Lahr: How long have you guys had a cabin there?
Scott: This will be our fifth season.
Billy Lahr: Very nice and a new do you guys have boats up there? Do you have snowmobiles up there?
Scott: Boats. Yeah, we share the cabin with my brother and sister in law, Tara's sister and her husband. So it's kind of a family compound and try to get as many people up and have a good time as we can and it's been fun.
Billy Lahr: One thing I forgot to mention here, so I actually know Scott because I went to high school with his wife. So that's how we have that connection rate here. And Scott said that he was listening to the podcast, and he shared it with his brother Lee. So Lee, let's get you into the mix here. You said that you're an IT guy but what are the three roles that you were looking forward to in the second half of your life?
Lee: I'm in a little different spot. I think father is number one because my daughter's like cheers. She's like blossoming and opening up and becoming like not that she wasn't a cool kid, like she's so much fun to hang out with. And you can see the maturity. So I look forward to that every day and then just brother and son like reconnecting and going through divorce and everything kind of gets all messed up. So then it'd be nice to just reconnect and even more and rebuild the bonds that we had before everything else came in [Inaudible at 11:57-11:58] Yeah, exactly. Like, go back to how it should be and that sort of thing.
Billy Lahr: And we were joking about this before. But you guys have a pretty close knit family because Scott drove all the way out to Sioux Falls and then where did your sister is there as well? Where does she live?
Scott: Watertown. So it's a couple hours north of here.
Billy Lahr: Gotcha. So I'll tell you that our family won't drive five minutes to see each other. My sisters, I don't think they would drive five minutes to see me or vice versa. So and I love my sisters and I hope that they love me too. It's just, it's just a different bond that we have with them. So that's very cool that you guys still have that family bond, that family connection. So lee I know part of your story is that you had mentioned that the divorce kind of shifted some things for you and the fact that the divorce took place when it did add a significant impact. So what we're gonna do is we're going to take a quick break, and then when we come back, Lee and Scott are gonna share their story around why it's so important for us to talk about emotional mental health. Thank you for listening to the mindful midlife crisis.
Break: Thank you for listening to the mindful midlife crises. If you're enjoying what you've heard so far. Please do us a favor and hit the subscribe button. Also, giving our show a quick five star review with a few kind words helps us on our quest to reach the top of the podcast charts. Finally, since you can't make a mix tape for your friends and loved ones like you used to do, share this podcast with him instead. We hope our experiences resonate with others and inspire people to live their best lives. Thanks again and now, let's take a minute to be president with our breath. If you're listening somewhere safe and quiet, close your eyes and slowly inhale for 4,3,2,1 hold for 7,6,5,4,3,2,1 slowly exhale for 8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Let's do that one more time. Inhale for 4,3,2,1 hold for 7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Slowly exhale for 8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 go ahead and open your eyes. You feel better. We certainly hope so and now back to the show.
Billy Lahr: Welcome back to the mindful midlife crisis. Brian and I are on a remote call here with Lee and Scott and Brian, we're probably gonna have to post this at some point. So you guys can see just how I have set up this recording tent that I have. So if I can give you all a visual, I have three stools around the outside of a comforter and then I have a mop broom, propping up the center. So I'm in this recording tent here, in order to dampen the sound, otherwise, it just echoes the whole time. And we are here joined with Lee and Scott who are brothers, they are listeners of our show proof that we actually have listeners to this show. So thank you guys for listening and it sounds like you know, our goal has been that we hope that what we talked about resonates with our listeners and Lee, you actually reached out to us and you shared that what we talked about in Episode 3 where I shared my own personal struggles with anxiety and depression and suicidal ideation that resonated with you and I'm just kind of curious, can you walk us through your own personal struggles with mental health?
Lee: Sure. Now that when you get a diagnosis, or you start to understand it as an adult, then you start looking back and going okay, when did this start? Like I can go back and say like, I felt the way I felt since I was probably 8 years old. The way my depression works is it's a self-loathing type of depression where I just hate myself, and it's everything I do is wrong and then I makes it worse. And I just spiral and go down and down and down. So I can go back to being in school, we went to a private church school and there were just something about one of the lessons to where like if you do this wrong, you're gonna go to hell type of thing that hit me different than, both my brother and sister went to the same school, I have friends to this day that went to that same school. I've talked to them about it, nobody else thought like well you better not ever make a mistake for the rest of your life. Otherwise, you're gonna go to hell, your family's gonna go to help that whole thing. And that's where but that's where it kind of started where I put pressure on myself that was just unrelenting and I felt that way for a long time. The reason that Scott sent me the episode or the podcast was because he said that I was very much like you too where I was the guy that walked in and was always fun, I could put on a face of happiness fun, the fun guy jokey guy forever and no one would ever know. So I got very good at living that way but as I got older as you get married, as you have kids and you get mortgages and jobs, and the stress of all of it got to a point where I couldn't just put that face on anymore and at that point, I still didn't know like I had depression, or I had anxiety, I just thought like many people do. I'm the only one that feels this way. I better I just gotta swallow it and figure it out and make sure everybody else is okay and I can handle it. But it just got to a point where I couldn't handle it and the thing that really changed the way I was thinking or realizing was I don't know if you listen to Karcher morning show on K fan in the cities. But Chris hawky did an interview and he literally is sitting there saying stuff that was in my brain. Like I'm driving down the road, I would never want to take my life but I hope that every car would cross me and come hit or every morning I woke up. I was mad that I woke up I just wanted it to be over. I sue I just wanted it to be over. I didn't. I didn't see a way out. I didn't see anything along those lines. So when that clicked and I talked to my wife at the time and she was like, well, that's great. Like, let's start to work on this and then the first really big thing was the day my daughter started kindergarten. I had a nervous breakdown and it had nothing to do with like I went to work and I felt super worthless. I felt like I was gonna ruin my daughter's life because I was this way and I was gonna make her life terrible for the rest of her life and I think her going to kindergarten kind of just click that like she's only in kindergarten and she's gonna have a dad that's broken for the rest of his life and isn't goinna be watching the dad and I went to work and I texted my wife at the time and I said you guys need to and she's like what I said you need to leave and never come back to me again because I can't handle, I can't do this. I can't do this you anymore and her credit she left work, came and took me to the hospital. And I went into an inpatient, an inpatient facility for a few days but I would say that first time that I went in, I went into voluntarily because I was like, there's something wrong, I need to figure something. But I went in there thinking, give me a pill, give me something, give me an answer I can have that's gonna take it all the way. It makes me never feel this way. That's not how it works. That’s you do it as you realize it or after you go through it, that's not how it works. A lot of what triggers my bad episodes is not sleeping. So I slept probably 3 hours in a 14 day piece. And before that do because I just can't turn your brain off. And it just eats at you and eats at you and I lay there and cry ads, go sleep on the couch and just cried because I was like, I can't ruin people's lives anymore. I can't be a bother anymore. So I got there and they're like, You look tired. So they gave me a shot and killed me like so I can sleep. I woke up and I felt great and I'm like I don't want to be in here anymore. Like I get it. I understand. I just didn't sleep. I need to do this kind of stuff and I was in there for two or three days and I checked myself out because I got this under control. They gave me some meds and I thought we got this. Put the meds and I hated it because I didn't feel [inaudible 21:28] because I know you guys talked about in some of those. I know like in Brian's Episode 2 like where you just… The medication isn't the answer all the time? Because it doesn't change it. It just makes you not feel anything. I didn't. I wasn't ever excited, sir. I was never like depressed. But I was never excited about anything and so then…
Billy Lahr: It treats him symptoms and not the problem.
Lee: Yes, yes. Yeah. It wasn't how I wanted to live. I was like I'd rather have depression and still get the be excited when my daughter does something then to never feel anything again. So and then that was probably 2017 and so then I was doing okay but it was one of those where it's an up and down and I went to counseling and it was a battle and it was a fight and then I came in August of 2019. It was my birthday actually and it's a stupid, stupid reason to do it. I'm not a person that's on Facebook, I'm going to go share everything to everyone. I was watching the Hall of Fame induction speech, a Brian doc safety for the Eagles, which is it's super weird but he had depression and he started talking about it and he started saying like, hey, if you have this, you need to let people know because what somebody told me once that they had it, and I didn't feel alone anymore and I got help. So then I just wrote this long thing saying, hey, this is how I feel. This is what I feel. I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm not. I don't expect anything from you but this is what I'm dealing with. If you're dealing with this, I'll talk to you if you want me to I don't have all the answers, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff and I thought, Okay, I'm gonna feel better because I'm not hiding this thing. It's not a secret, I'm gonna feel awesome. This will fix it and it felt great for a day because people were like, We're with you, blah, blah, blah. But then anytime I went anywhere and walked into a room I was the guy that was broken. I was the guy who…there was something wrong and I was the guy that everybody walked on eggshells [Inaudible word at 23:44] and I was the guy that people wanted to help but didn't know how and I hate and me personally, I hate that I don't like being the center of attention. I don't like people pitying me or anything like that. So it backfired huge and it made me feel like I look at you, you're just a piece of garbage. Like look these people feel sorry for you, because there's something wrong with you and it slowly started to spiral. And with my family I became more and more isolated like they would have stuff and I'd be like, No, we have stuff to do here. We're not gonna come because I didn't want to be the guy that walked in the room anymore. I didn't want to be the guy that was a pity, pity or felt sorry for. So I started to really distance myself from everything even my ex-wife and my daughter, like there's days where I would just be like I need to go to sleep. That was my answer to everything. I'm gonna go to sleep because I thought I can just get it through this day. I'll be fine and but that does work. Going to sleep is great until you wake up and it sucks all over again.
Billy Lahr: It sounds like then that strain on your relationship is what kind of led to the falling out with your now ex-wife. And so if you're comfortable with, you want to talk about that?
Lee: Absolutely. I gave her tons of credit because she tried and she was there for me and she did a lot, a lot, a lot of put up with a lot of stuff. And the reason we're divorce is not really because of her. It was because you could be you become codependent and my whole thing was I don't want myself I don't ever want to be a bother to anyone. So I would just hold it all inside all the time as much as I could. Looking back, I probably didn't do a really very good job but I thought I was doing a good job of hiding it and my whole thing was, I'm going to take care of those; my daughter and my wife, when it makes sure every they have everything. So I would do everything like I would do the cooking the cleaning, I would do everything. Thinking like that would make me feel better because she was happy. Well, I just neglected myself and I just hate it and hate it and hate it. She wasn't asking for that I was doing that on my own because I was thinking that's what I should do and it just came to a head where I was like, I'm never gonna get better. If my whole thing is I have to take care of this other person because I knew I couldn't turn it off. There's no way I could stop being that person. Even if I was doing a shitty job of being that person in my mind I'd always think she has to come first, she has to come first. So like us getting divorced largely is just because I need to not have anyone besides my daughter depend on me, I like I can't, I can't physically have someone because I know that I'm going to slip back into that pattern of okay. They're more important. There’s what matters. You just deal with it. You can you can handle it, just take the burden on you. You handle it, make sure everybody else is okay and I've told that 100 times like this isn't even about her. Everybody has their issues and there's frustrations and there's stuff that happened that you just at some point you look back like that was like but at the core of it was just I knew I could never completely get better and the real thing that got me to that point was in December 3rd 2019. I took my daughter to school because I wasn't working from home, I felt no I was off work that day even I took her to school and she would look down and she was in first grade and she just looked at me and I said What's wrong, though? And she said, Oh, nothing, nothing, nothing because she does the same stuff I do and I said no, what's wrong sweetheart? And she said, I just don't want my dad to be sad anymore and it was the same thing as today we dropped her off at kindergarten what I thought, I'm F in my kid's life, my daughter is gonna grow up with a piece of garbage father, it's you have to worry about this guy for the rest of your life. So I went home that day and I took every pill that we have in that house. And I laid them out. I laid them out into like in piles with the bottle next to them because I don't ever want to be a bother. That's why I didn't shoot myself. That's why I didn't do anything that was messy because I didn't want anybody to clean up after me. But I put the pills in piles and lined them up all around the counter and I sat there and just crying against the counter knowing I was gonna do this and my dog craziest thing in the world. My dog bit my hand, grabbed me by that shirtsleeve and pulled me away and I pushed him away and he got up and started barking at me like he's never marked me before and pulled me away again. I just fell down to the ground crying and I look up and there's a picture of my daughter on the wall and I instantly snapped out. Thank God that that dog was there like he gets everything he ever wants for the rest of his life now but after that, I called my wife and I said this is what just happened and she said, okay, call the helpline. So I called now, unbeknownst to me, she called 911 and said, do you need to go do a wellness check on this person. Well, I talked to the helpline and they were like, well, let's see if we can get you in blah, blah, blah. Well, the police came and they just took me right to the hospital. They're like and they said, we're here this is going on and I was just like, yep, let's go. I'm done. I can't do this anymore and this time I walked into the hospital and it was another situation where I hadn't slept before it happened. I walked into the hospital and I get to the intake stuff and there's a doctor that is there. That's one of the head doctors and I saw him the first time. And we sit down, and he looks at me and he said, Alright, are you here to do this or is this just more bullshit. And I was like what? Last time and he's like, you aren't going to fix this, we're going to get rid of this, we're not going to cure this. You have to accept that this is something that you're gonna live with and we got to teach you how to live with this, and how to deal with this [Inaudible word at 30:31] with it and it changed everything. It completely changed everything because I took the time to learn and I took the time to talk to counselors and they put me through tests upon I mean, I sat did all of these personality tests and all this stuff to understand where it was coming from and it's just completely changed everything about how I do life, you know and so that's kind of what got into that.
Billy Lahr: Can you talk a little bit about what they had you do once you went to back to the hospital second time, what were some of the tools that they equipped you with in order to manage when you were feeling low, so that you could pull yourself back up?
Lee: We did a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy or training. So it's a lot of it was coping mechanisms because you're gonna have a day where you think, gosh, you're, you're an idiot. It's stopping that thought before it gets to the point where you can't pull yourself back out of it again and like the mindfulness stuff, that was part of it too. I mean, people would probably laugh at me. I do positive affirmations every morning, I list three things I did good at night, I list three things I'm looking forward to during the day, there'll be times where something will happen and it will start to set me off and I will talk to myself out loud. I'm like dude, you know that person's actions that's not about you. You didn't do anything wrong. That's just the way that they're feeling. They might be having a bad day or I can't control like last in beginning of March [Inaudible at 32:15-32:16] my company laid off 30% and I was one of the 30%. Before that would have just made me go like well look at you, you're worthless pile of garbage, like of course they did. You didn't deserve to stay there and now I'm like they didn't have the money. I had been there one of the least amount of times I'd only been there a year and I had this conversation out loud to myself or with my dog because it seems silly. It seems like a hippieish. It seems like…
Scott: Especially where we grew up and you're not really I mean you grew up in rural areas, that stuff is hippie.
Billy Lahr: Absolutely. Absolutely it's Oh, man, I talked about it before I told my dad when you know that at one time that I thought I needed to go to therapy. And he was like, that's not jobs. You know, you don't talk about your feelings. What's? That talking about your feelings? That's what women do. It plays into that toxic masculinity that unfortunately, we see in rural areas and listen if you live in a rural area, and you're listening to this and you're like, you know what are you talking about? I grew up in a rural area, we grew up in rural areas and it's real, like it really is this undue pressure to be a man and that sort of thing and I'm the first one to admit that there's, you know that I am not very manly, I am a beta male to the nth degree, I don't know how to drive a stick shift. So I've probably just lost 10% of our listeners’ right there. You know, it's just that you're right. It's difficult to express when you're feeling that way and then I think that bubbles over for 30, 40, 50 years and then you find yourself in a situation where you feel like the only solution is a final solution and we're seeing that you can take a look at statistics especially out in the in the West, areas like Idaho and Montana which are extremely isolating areas just because of the mountains. You're actually finding really, really high rates of middle aged men committing a suicide out that way because there's so little in the way of mental health support.
Scott: And access is probably a big thing, even not to mention the stigma you know finding a good therapist in these small towns is probably not easy.
Brian: Right.
Lee: It's tricky. Well, one thing I was going to say was I when you were talking about the guilt like we had parents that were supportive, and we're always there we had like, you can't really have a much of a better childhood. I don't remember, I rarely remember our parents fighting. I don't remember, there was just nothing like that we were a Midwestern family where not a lot was talked about either like you didn't.
Scott: Lutheran.
Lee: Lutheran, yes, everything's kind of like Hush Hush. But we never had anything we did want. None of that stuff. My ex-wife, she had a tough childhood, like, stuff happened in her childhood that I felt awful and so then, when I'm feeling this way, I'm going, you don't have a right to feel this way. But she's the one that should be this way. So it made my guilt 10 times more and I don't know like you feel like you're letting everyone else down and even like I had a conversation with someone, the same lady that cuts my hair all the time, we're talking about and she was talking about someone who committed suicide in her family. And she's like, I just don't understand it. I don't know how you can be so selfish. I don't understand all this stuff and I said, and she didn't know that I had had suicide stuff and I told her the story. And then I said, it was to me, I thought leaving for everybody, but my daughter was going to be make their life better because they didn't have to worry about me. I was gonna not cause problems anymore, my issues were no longer going to be there. So they didn't have to worry about it. Like it had nothing to do with getting attention or being selfish. It was I don't want other people mean that's why I didn't do it in a violent way. That's why if I laid out all the pills with the bottles next to them, so if I took a portion of them, and they didn't and it knocked me out before I got to take all of them, it was easier to clean up like shit like that, that goes on into your brain as somebody who all they care about is other people, like you don't care about yourself at all. So it's when people say it's a selfish thing. I'm sure for some people it is. But for me and a lot of people I talk have talked to you, it's not a selfish thing. It's like, I don't want people to worry about me.
Billy Lahr: We had an amazing conversation with Dr. Yvette Erasmus. And that episode is gonna air later on down the road and she talks about the importance of self-love and really, that's where our healing starts is through self-love. Lee, I'm curious who initiated then the conversation between you and your wife to divorce, if you don't mind talking about that.
Lee: It was kind of one of those, when we [Inaudible at 37:41-37:42] always got brought up and after counseling sessions, my counselor never said get divorced but he was almost like something needs to change. I don't know what that is. But like this, if that pressure is always there, you're never gonna get past what's going on. So you guys either need to change. We've done marriage counseling, we done couples comp, we've done all that stuff and in my brain, I just was like… I like self-love. I'm like, I cannot love myself when I'm worrying about making someone else happy at this point especially when it's not your child, a child and your spouse are two different things. Spouses and adults should be able to handle their own stuff, a child is dependent on you, I can make my child happy and still make myself happy, when it's a spouse, because there's more. There's so much history behind it too. I mean, we've been married for 10 years, when together for 13 there was so much stuff that would have had to have been undone. For me, I just didn't see that it was possible. I didn't feel like I could ever not feel that and so it was me that like basically said like I can't do this anymore. I gotta be done and if I'm gonna be happy and be the best that I can be. I can't do it this way and ultimately being a dad is the number one thing I got.
Billy Lahr: It sounds like you guys still have an amicable relationship.
Lee: Yeah.
Billy Lahr: And you know I think I've talked about this before or talking about it in a later episode. I always respect divorce couples that still manage to have an amicable relationship because especially when there are children involved because really you're setting a course of behavior and modeling, of course behavior for your children that you can respect somebody with whom you have disagreements and this is how you treat people, you treat people with respect. So I applaud both of you for handling it that way and Lee, I want to say thank you for sharing that story.
Brian: So Lee, if you could say anything to someone in the position that you were and what would it be?
Lee: First thing I tell everybody is give it one more day. If you think that it's not good enough, you can kill yourself tomorrow. But don't kill yourself today. Wait till tomorrow and then tomorrow give yourself one more day. That's just sleep on, just sleep. That's what the first thing I tell him. But the main thing I always tell people is, you aren't alone. You are not by yourself because that's how it feels, it feels like you're the only one that's ever gone through this struggle with this and but you're not alone and when people ask me, like when I talk to Scott, like I'm trying to explain to him because one thing you really want is you want someone to understand it and I can never make anybody else understand that that doesn't have that. People and I said, take the saddest you've ever been like somebody died tragically, whatever and that grief that you feel that you feel like you can never overcome. Then take that and angle all that grief towards yourself and how much you hate yourself and then think and then know what this has been going on for a year, there is no hope that this will ever go away because that's how I felt because I felt like and then I started looking back like I felt this way for 30 years inside. So it just continually builds up to where you're like well, how is this? How could it possibly get better? I just want to say it does. It does. You just have to not only ask for help. One thing, not only admit that you have a problem. But accept that you have a problem. That was my biggest thing in the beginning was I was like, yep, I have depression but I didn't accept the fact that this was goinna be part of my life forever. So once you accept the fact that this is not going to go away but you can manage it. That's the biggest key to all of it is setting your expectations of I can handle this, there are gonna be shitty days, but I can get through those days as opposed to [Inaudible at 42:14-42:16] take medicine. Why do I have a day like this? Why am I still depressed today? I thought this was the [Inaudible word at 42:21] I went to counseling yesterday. Why this is? Why am I feeling this way again? Well, everybody has bad days. So my thing would be just know you're not alone. Admit it and accept the fact that you need help and that it's gonna be a word for the rest of your life.
Billy Lahr: I think it's so important to understand that you're not alone. I know like even for me to start this podcast with Brian, a big roadblock for me was coming to grips with well who wants to listen to a privileged straight white male talk about their mental health issue is I mean get over yourself dude and you know, in the research we're finding is it's middle aged men and a predominantly white men who are committing suicide. And I don't understand that. And you know, I look at so much of the social inequities that exist in this world like why am I feeling this way when I'm like, Oh my gosh, like if I had to endure the racism and the homophobia and whatever else is the hatred that people endure, man like how would I even carry on when I can barely carry on as this privileged straight white male and I talked to somebody about that and they said, that's exactly why you need to talk about it is because, yes all these other things that are happening. They're horrible, and they are a burden in people's lives but mental health affects every human being, regardless of your age, your race, your gender, your privilege. It affects every human being. See, you need to talk about this and so I'm very happy that you're taking the time as well to talk about this and that you've been open about it. I think this is a great time for us to take a break when we come back scott, you're gonna share your side from what it was like as a bystander as an outsider as a brother witnessing your brother go through this. Thank you everybody for listening to the mindful midlife crisis.
Break: Thanks for listening to the mindful midlife crisis. We will do our best to put out new content every Wednesday to help get you over the midweek hump. If you'd like to contact us, or if you have suggestions about what you'd like us to discuss, feel free to email us at mindfulmidlifecrisis@gmail.com Poor, follow us on Instagram at mindful_ midlife_crisis. Check out the show notes for links to the articles and resources we referenced throughout the show. Oh, and don't forget to show yourself some love every now and then and now, back to the show.
Billy Lahr: Welcome back to the mindful midlife crisis. Brian and I are talking to listeners, Scott and Lee. They are brothers and Lee just told an amazing story here and we really appreciate you taking the time to be vulnerable and tell that story.
Brian: And incredibly brave for that matter. So thank you.
Billy Lahr: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely and so Scott we just kind of wanted to ask you here then so as his brother as Lee's brother and you're kind of witnessing going through this, it sounds like you were listening to my story from Episode 3 and you were making connections between my story and Lee’s story and you were actually the one who shared the podcast with him?
Scott: That's correct.
Billy Lahr: Okay. I'm just kind of curious as you were listening to it what resonated with you as someone from the outside looking in.
Scott: So little in this history, I'm five years older than my brother. He's a little brother and he was always kind of falling around, tagging along. As we [Inaudible word at 46:25] kind of all the way, very regimented. Lee was always the fun loving guy, the fun loving kid. He always made us laugh, you know and my friends laugh, that's how we got to take along, right and that's how I associated with him, I was always a bit more socially awkward, a little more you know, had a hard time cracking up had a hard time having fun and he was always just on, you know and I envied that and so my opinion of him was kind of framed around that and really being around you, you know, meeting you a few different times, you're kind of that character you're not, you know you walk into a room you're on and then when you were telling your story, and there was just so much crossover between what he had relayed to me through his experience and what you were saying and I'm like, you know I know that he has said that to me before. I just want someone to feel what I feel, you know like I can't, he tried, he's tried, but I don't. I can't know what he's feeling. And I thought and if Billy feels this way, maybe there's something there maybe it will help Lee kind of… just see some similarity and some strength and I'm super excited that this has kind of come out of that, because it I think it's been cathartic for him. And I think it's been really cool experience for you. And Brian to feel like, you know, there's some like this is important, you know, and it's also been really eye opening for me, just to kind of see how this matters. You know, how this is bigger than maybe I thought it was.
Billy Lahr: Can you talk about maybe some of the stigmas that you had around mental health or around what Lee was experiencing and why that was so difficult for you to understand?
Scott: Yeah, I think you know as we talked about a rural areas, small town. I had a dad who was hardworking, you know like just work ethic head down, go to work. You don't call in sick. You don't show much emotion. We had grandparents, our father figures or male figures in our life are awesome but they are emotionless characters in a sense. You know I think we've seen that knees up over years but when we were little, you know, there was no tears. You didn't cry when [Inaudible at 48:55] you didn't cry at those things and I think I've kind of been that way. Lee is definitely more sentimental. You know, that's another thing that you guys share a little bit like [Inaudible at 49:09-49:10] when he got married. I gave a best man's speech and I told him that I'm like me and add at our wives convinced that this was it. This is the best you got. There's no emotion here and now you have to come along and do all this all the stuff [Inaudible word at 49:24] and give them hope. We are capable of it and so I think you know, that was hard like I'm more wired like that by just naturally and not that it was a stigma, not that I felt that he was weak in any way, not, not at all. I didn't I just didn't know how to say the right thing. What to do. I my first reaction is did I make this works? Was I a part of it, you know, I knew I was very aware of being five years older than him and being a Type A and being you know we went to a small Lutheran School like [Inaudible at 49:59-50:00] being good in athletics and getting good grades and doing all that stuff. That was my rule. That was what I cared about. He was different. You know, he had his own mode of hitting through that and I think I was aware of that he looked up to me and when he started telling this story, and he started telling me how he was feeling my first reaction was I caused this, you know, I mean that sounds really selfish. And maybe it is, but it was a fear that God, I didn't want to lose it, you know, I didn't want him to, I didn't want to lose him from my life and I didn't want me to give something that made him want not want to be around. So it was hard and I didn't know how to deal with that emotion. I didn't know how to express it to him. I didn't know how to talk to my parents about it, my wife about it, you know, so it was a lonely spot to for us on this side going I want to help, but I can't fix it. I don't know what to do.
Billy Lahr: I'm curious, did you guys talk to your parents about this then and it doesn't sound like for you, Scott, at least any way that there was we'll just get over it sort of approach, it was like, did I cause this? I'm wondering it was there just get over it from anybody else, or people listening but not maybe not understanding.
Scott: I don't know if there was a just get over this. It was almost like I don't know if we ever sat down like all as a family. I talked [Inaudible word at 51:28] I talked to my sister, I talked to my brother, I talked to my mom, I talked to my dad but it was more like one on one. Like I explained the story four times, you know, like I told them all how I was feeling but I don't think we ever sat down together, where I didn't know what to do or where I messed up as I told them all this stuff but I didn't give them any idea of what I expected or what I needed from them. Like I wrote that long post and in that post, it says like give me some whatever give some instruction, but I didn't say to them because what Scott always would tell me is I just don't want to see the wrong thing to make it worse.
Billy Lahr: Yeah.
Scott: And the only thing that you're gonna tell me that is that's gonna make it worse is to go you're a pussy, wake up, get over it. This isn't real. It's all in your head. If unless you say that everything else I can't... and like he said, I always wanted someone to understand. I had to get over that as well. Like I could tell him every day how I felt. But you don't know how it feels until you've done, until it's been a year of feeling that way and if you haven't experienced that you can't fully grasp it you know, like I don't know what it's like to have cancer. Not that I'm not comparing the two but like I don't have that shared experience, he can see my personality change and he can see because they always do like we went to his cabin one summer, and like we were there for two days and I was awesome for the most of the day. But then I get this sinking feeling like, I'm going to eff this up, and I'm going to screw up and I'm gonna wreck the whole weekend because I'm going to get down and then you automatically get down and I can see everybody else's stuff team. But I didn't tell them to say I didn't like give them instructions or say it's okay. I'll get over it. But when people then start saying, Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? That's when it gets... That's when it gets tough.
Brian: I think you know like immediate family, it's a struggle that I think my sister wouldn't acknowledge to like, sometimes it has made just a distance between all of us for the last few years. You know, um, you know, we, when we started out here, you asked us if we get along and stuff, and we do the three of us get along really well. But when you have Lee and his experience and what he's gone through with depression and anxiety, you also have the complications of marriage that's in the middle of that. I have a wife and two kids that depend on me, my sister has a son and a husband and my mom and dad have a life, you know, and you got all of those things working together. It complicates things and sometimes I think we were pulling away but we were also all pulling away at certain times because and was it frustrating at Christmas time or Easter thanksgiving to have that hanging over you because it was there. There was like a little bit of a cloud and passion this last year, Christmas this last year was fun. It was fun. It was awesome like we laughed, we played card games and board games like our family used to do and we haven't done that for a few years and so it was pretty cool. So there was never any I don't think anybody ever said even you know my both my grandpa's are passed away now but I don't think either even them would have said that but I do think that there's just there's a lack of understanding of this stuff even if you want to know, want to do the right thing and want to say the right thing, you just don't know how and that's how I felt. And I think that's how my dad feels, I think that's how a lot of men feel and women for that matter, you know what I mean we just add something that's been talked about as a family.
Lee: Yeah. And I think a lot of it too, is everybody's human nature of wanting to fix somebody else fix their problem. And it's not a night. That's one thing I tell everybody like nobody else can fix this, he's not gonna say, there's not something he's gonna come up with in his head, that's gonna make me go overnight. I shouldn't be depressed. This is not great. So don't try, you don't have to die and I did a poor job. I just was like, laying all this out there like I damn near killed myself and I am struggling and okay, figure it out. I didn't give him any instructions, or because I probably didn't know what I fully expected from them, you know, so and like our dad, he never once in my life, told me really suck it up or be tougher, or whatever he would and if I would have said and I did, I sat and talked to him on the phone about it. But it's not something that's offered, you know, it's not like he just would call, you know, like, that's not how that how we grew up. That's not how any of the people were, they figured well, if he needs help, he'll reach out and it wasn't something Scott said to you. Like, if you need anything, let me know. Well, the last thing I'm going to do is reach out and say I know you have this whole life, and you have kids and a wife and a job and stuff stressful but here's my problems, like you said, Yeah, like privilege. We had the same childhood. Basically, we are the same parents, but I'm way broken because of something in my brain. So please listen to me complain about how tough my life that's just wasn't in my brain at all.
Billy Lahr: Scott, can you think of things that you didn't want to say to Lee? [Inaudible at 57:06] when the two of you would talk?
Scott: I don't know if there was something I really did. Sometimes, I feel like avoid asking the real question because I didn't know if I was prepared for the real answer or I was afraid of the answer might be not what I wanted to hear as he was pulling away and I know that my sister and I had these conversations too, that we were just so afraid of losing him, losing him suicide or losing him like he just wasn't going to be in our life, he was going to completely isolate himself and I just was so fearful that for some reason I was part of that, like I contributed to that and I think because of that because I didn't ask the right questions or even ask the honest questions are the hardest questions it made it harder for him to us to make that connection sometimes.
Brian: This question is for both of you. From opposite sides of the spectrum, what do you think is the best thing family members can do to support somebody who's having mental health issues that I mean, from your perspectives?
Billy Lahr: And I was gonna ask that too. I was actually curious if Lee did they provide you with tools to share with your family and friends that you could communicate to them and say, Hey, here's how we can talk about it.
Lee: Yeah my counselor has… it just goes against everything inside of me to do them like, which is what a lot of counselors are here for is to not let you stay in your comfort zone. It's basically saying this like because there were so many times my ex-wife and basically everyone, nobody wanted to hear how bad it was. They wanted to be like, Oh, he had a scare. This he was feeling really down like this might have been the reason I want to say no, no, no, I felt like this for 10 years to where I wish I would die like I was sad days that I woke up and I would say like, asked to other people ask the tough questions because the last thing because my ex-wife had a family member passed away from suicide. So it was really hard for her to listen to it and like there's I relate to music and shows and podcasts obviously, a lot and there's a show on Netflix by Ricky [Inaudible word at 59:34] called after [Inaudible word at 59:35] I shit you not the last episode of The Last season in he's taking pills and his dog is barking at him and stops him from taking pills. So like, it was like telling my ex-wife please watch this. Please wait. It took a long time because she's like, well, it's too tough for me to do that. And I'm like, it's way tougher for me to feel it. Like I need you to like try to experience it even if you don't completely understand it, don't want to assume that it's okay like just as like he's okay. Now that's past, I don't want to hear the hard parts. Because it's invalidating how I felt.
Brian: I wonder if it was hard for her.
Billy Lahr: Because she had that family?
Lee: Yes. Absolutely.
Billy Lahr: She might not have wanted to watch that either because now she's had two experiences in her life and I can empathize with that.
Lee: Yeah, I totally understand.
Lee: I understand that completely. But that's what me personally, I can't speak for every person that's been in that situation. I tried like I came up with… I had a blog about songs that I wrote and what each line meant to me just because that was one thing that counselor said his blog about and just all this stuff, just in like, share it with people saying, like, this is how I feel like this is what it means and I was expecting them to just be like, I could get it now and that's not the case. But for people just to say or to sweep it under the rug or not want to hear it, that's an invalidation of how bad it was like you're just I know, you had a tough time but I don't think it was as bad as your [Inaudible at 1:01:12-1:01:13]
Scott: Yeah, yeah. I kind of second bet sentiment, I will say this like me and Lee had conversations throughout this process at my sister and I have to, we talk about things, text a lot and they're pretty open. But I will say that sometimes they weren't specific, you know, there was surface level stuff there. Like I said, People to your point, people ask, Hey, Lee, how you doing? You're hoping that he says good because if he says you don't really shitty, I don't really want to hear that story. Right now. I'm at Easter, I'm at Thanksgiving or you know, that's different, but this podcast, guys opened that line a little bit more for us because it gave us an icebreaker topic like, Hey, dude, did you listen to the new podcast, and there's a topic there. And guys, I've shared it with my wife, and she doesn't always listen to the podcast, you know, to a male centric, and maybe it doesn't apply.
Brian: What?
Scott: Once I talk about the concepts that she's been like, it's really cool. Like you were talking about, like a male brain and you know, maybe that, why I'm at 40 years old, feeling a different way than I did at 20 years old, and how that affects her and how we have conversations. It's spurred conversations on that way. And I think that's really an interesting way to look at this for families, members like myself, he can find something like that to kind of start the conversation. So it doesn't have to be so awkward. It doesn't have to be like, Hey, nice to see at Thanksgiving, how's your depression? you know, I mean, it's just a bit easier to kind of ease into it if you're having these conversations offline, not at the holidays, not at those times and you can go grab coffee or a weekend like this, I think that's our purpose even for this weekend is just to kind of reconnect without kids, wives, Mom and Dad, we can went to each other about all of those things and we can be honest and real with the three of us and we did better when we were younger you know and sometimes the last few years we have it so that would be I guess my suggestion is just find a way to break that ice, find a way to make it less awkward because it really is an awkward conversation and it's not one that you hope to have but it's important.
Lee: Necessarily.
Scott: Yeah.
Billy Lahr: If the two of you are only two listeners till the end of this podcast I just feel like that is reason enough for us to continue recording episodes so that you guys can have that dialogue and I sincerely hope that people who are listening maybe this podcast is a is an opportunity to open up a dialogue with others and like hearing you guys talk about hanging out with your family and stuff like that like it's hitting me a little bit too because I've pulled away from that for a variety of reasons and it's reconnected a dialogue with one sister but not with the other and yeah I mean I'm glad that what we're sharing with you guys is resonating with you but just know that what you're sharing here today is also resonating with us. So we just really want to thank you so much for taking the time to meet with us today and share your stories. We really hope that others who are listening like you said, Lee, recognize that you're not alone that this is something that people feel and it's okay to feel it. We just need to get recognize that we need to get support for it so that we can move on and not feel like this all the time. I imagine that you have highs and lows still.
Lee: Oh, absolutely.
Billy Lahr: It's not a magic bullet. It's not something that you know, in therapy doesn't fix everything I've talked about before how mindfulness doesn't solve all the world's problems, it just makes the world's problems a little bit easier to manage or makes your problems a little bit easier to manage and it's wonderful to hear that you have taken steps to learn how to manage these ups and downs emotionally as you feel them and we're really happy that this podcast has been a part of that dialogue in your family's life. So thank you so much for sharing your time with us and we will let you get back to enjoying each other's time as a family.
Lee: Alright, thank you guys so much for everything you do.
Billy Lahr: For Scott for Lee for Brian, this is Billy. Thank you for listening to the mindful midlife crisis make you feel happy, healthy and loved. Take care friends.